Manchester United 2-3 Athletic Bilbao: United unable to deal with pressing and high tempo
The starting line-ups
Athletic produced an extremely impressive performance, and take a decent lead back to Bilbao.
Sir Alex Ferguson left out the likes of Rio Ferdinand, Paul Scholes, Michael Carrick and Danny Welbeck, and went with Javier Hernandez upfront, and a combination of Chris Smalling and Jonny Evans at the back.
Marcelo Bielsa was able to play his first-choice XI, with the exception of one position – Fernando Amorebieta was suspended, so Mikel San Jose started instead.
Athletic started brightly and were the better side throughout the game, dominating possession and creating more chances.
Formations
Bielsa, as we know, likes to maintain a spare man at the back. If United were playing a straight 4-4-2, Bielsa probably would have played three centre-backs instead of the extra central midfielder that featured here, but because United are actually more like 4-4-1-1, Bielsa could tell Ander Iturraspe to pick up Rooney, with the spare man retained at the back with 2 v 1 against Javier Hernandez.
United’s shape was as expected, though they used Ashley Young on the right and Park Ji-Sung on the left – both probably prefer the left, but since Young’s game is more based around the ball and therefore more highly influenced by which side of the pitch he plays on, it would probably have been better off the other way around. That said, Park is better defensively and Andoni Iraola is the better Athletic full-back, so the decision made sense in that respect.
Pressing
Athletic were highly flexible and versatile, and without the ball they pressed heavily from the front. Fernando Llorente was told to close down the two centre-backs, with the wide players rarely looking to close down the other centre-back to make it 2 v 2 high up, and instead focussing more on tracking United’s full-backs, who seldom managed to break forward unattended.
As seen in the game against Barcelona, Athletic want to practically man-mark the opposition all over the pitch, and this meant that Ander Herrera and Oscar De Marcos moved forward to shut down Phil Jones and Ryan Giggs, playing significantly in advance of Iturraspe. There was often a huge gap in front of Iturraspe, and although United didn’t have anyone to naturally exploit this space, they could have had more lateral movement off the flanks from Young and Park – they would have been tracked, but would have drawn their marker out of position.
Athletic's pressing system
The diagram to the right shows the simple (on paper) way Athletic pressed. Llorente had to cover two men in order to maintain the spare man at the other end of the pitch, but otherwise the wingers pressed full-backs, central midfielders were on central midfielders, and wing-backs on wide midfielders.
At the back the centre-backs took it in turns (though Javi Martinez did it more) to track Javier Hernandez out of the back very tightly, and the Mexican struggled with the physical attention. The other centre-back, usually San Jose, then became the sweeper.
Athletic attacks
But what Athletic did excellently here was with the ball, moving it quickly from player to player, but reasonably patiently when United had men behind the ball. The brilliance in their play comes from the change of tempo when they have the ball 30-40 yards from goal – it usually hinges upon a quick, direct run in behind an opponent from one of the wing-backs or central midfielders, often to create a one-two opportunity and get past an opponent.
The wing-backs were particularly important in Athletic’s play, because they stretched the play and provided attacking overlaps. They often moved so high up the pitch that they became part of the forward line, and neither Park nor Young wanted to move that deep. For Athletic’s first goal, both Iraola and Aurtenexte found got into the box – the away side simple overwhelmed United with numbers.
Passing
The passing wasn’t always particularly precise, but it was generally ambitious and forward-thinking, with the knowledge that if Athletic misplaced a pass and conceded possession, they would win the ball back quickly anyway.
There was an interesting approach to long balls. Bielsa had to wean Athletic off playing long, high balls towards Llorente at the start of the season, but they do still play direct balls for the wingers moving in behind the defence for (straightish) diagonal balls. In the first half, both Iker Muniain and Markel Susaeta had good chances in this fashion.
Llorente did a good job when he did get the ball, though, by holding it up and waiting for midfield runners. Smalling and Evans have the makings of a good partnership but are not yet comfortable against a big, strong number nine.
United were guilty of standing off high up the pitch. Athletic were telling the strikers to press, but Rooney was doing almost nothing without the ball, letting Iturraspe dictate the tempo and spread the play to the flanks. He was told to do more work in the second half, when United were chopping and changing in the midfield zone and trying to find more energy and mobility.
Phil Jones and Ryan Giggs struggled – Jones wasn’t good enough on the ball under pressure, and Giggs lacked the mobility and struggled with close attention in deep positions. Michael Carrick and Anderson ended up in that zone, and though Carrick did OK and stablised United, even he isn’t at his best under pressure.
There were so many chances in the game that the goals barely stood out amongst all the opportunites, but it was notable that United’s two goals came following a free-kick and a penalty – Athletic continue to lack discipline at the back. The away side’s major chances came when the wing-backs overloaded play, stretched the United defence and created gaps for onrushing midfielders to burst though. There could and should have been more goals, but Athletic fully merited the victory.
Conclusion
United knew what to expect from Athletic, but simply seemed unprepared for such heavy pressing. The midfield wasn’t mobile nor good enough on the ball, there was little rotation of positions or even particularly good movement, and when United did break through the centre, Hernandez was extremely wasteful in the box. He’s fallen out of favour dramatically recently, and Welbeck is the clear first choice upfront.
Athletic played (probably) their best game of the season, perfectly in keeping with Bielsa’s strategy and ideology. If they could play this way every week they’d be in La Liga’s top three, but it’s difficult to press with such energy every match.
I dont know if you saw my post on another recent article, but on wednesday, I had the pleasure of watching bilbao train at Manchester United’s Cliff training ground. It was a very interesting session with great attention to detail. In one particular drill, the wide players focussed on whipping the ball at medium height between the deep centre-backs. It was essentially preparation which led to a goal. I saw Mr. Bielsa too. A brilliant experience and massively interesting. LOOKING FORWARD TO READING THIS NOW! IF ANYBODY HAS ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CONTENT OF THE SESSION THEN JUST ASK
Interesting, any other interesting features?
Well the squad trained in seperate groups, obviously keepers trained as a group. The forwards and defenders all played a possession game in a circle. Some of the midfielders including Ander Herrera went off to the centre of the pitch and practiced the angulation of their passing, they were making sure they were on the opposite side of their man (to the ball) to open up a wider passing angle. They did this in rotation, maintaining a rythm throughout. Mr. Bielsa mostly observed and walked about from group to group, his coaches were expected to take the seperate sessions. As I mentioned before they practised the accuracy of their crosses into a specific area, interesting despite the obvious advantages llorente brings that they NEVER hung to ball to the back post, always whipped in at medium height, with great accuracy and consistency. Whilst this happened, Javi Martinez and Itturaspe worked on receiving the ball from the centrebacks, they frequently opened up space with a wide angle, and then ran into space they had vacated, I paid attention to the width and angles that the 2 defenders and single midfielder made. Eventually, the whole squad began a shadow play drill, they had manequins set up in the shape they roughly expected United to play. In this drill, Bilbao set up roughly 4-1-4-1 which was matched against United’s hypothetical 4-2-3-1 with a slightly narrow right winger. The coaches fed footballs from the left, the right and the centre to test the positional adjustments of the Bilbao players. Javi Martinez and (I think) Ander Herrera took very deep positions at one point, close to the full back who also tucked in, this completely closed up the channel to a potential pass. They did this when the ball was one the right side. As the ball changed sides, the full-backs pressured the ball on the requisite side, the other defenders swept round to cover him, as they did this, Toquero (who was playing right wing) dropped even further still and took up the right back position so Bilbao temporarily had 5 defenders. Naturally this happened on the other side too. The coaches explained a lot of things on diagrams close up, sadly I wasn’t able to see them. Obviously a great deal of the preparation had been done in Bilbao, this was a very light session the day before the game, but there was still some interesting things to be learned from it. I found it highly enjoyable and massively informative. If you have any more questions dont hesitate to ask
Oh and the pictures of our/my visit can be found on the club website!
Thanks friend a lot for this. Much appreciate.
I don’t quite understand the Javi Martinez/Itturaspe part. How did they opened up space with a wide angle and then ran into vacated space?
San Jose Martinez
He did this diagonally, but the limitations of my keyboard dont allow for this
Sorry first attempt went wrong!
San jose martinez
(RAN LEFT TO HERE)= Iturraspe
San jose martinez
Iturraspe = (RAN RIGHT TO HERE)
Hopefully third time is the charm, sorry for the triple post)
Ah ok, I see what you meant. Tnx.
Did you also watch any Bielsa’s training in Bilbao by any chance? (assuming you are from there)
No, I am from Manchester actually! My College has training links with the Manchester United Foundation, and so as a treat we were taking to see Bilbao train at the Cliff
Whose club website?
Do you have anymore info on the training session or link to some?
ZM, I didnt think this was the best game of Athletic. In fact, they didnt press as hard as they did against Barca. They were like beasts against Barca. YOu may note that they were also less physical y’day, may be because already 4 were on cards. I would say, they played like 20% less to what they managed against Barca. You could see that Bielsa was often unhappy in the side lines.
It would have been terrible for United, if they did.
Bilbao played a truly incredible game against Barca. But the game was played in an unplayable swamp of a pitch. I find it hard to call it a better game than this.
>>I didnt think this was the best game of Athletic. In fact, they didnt press as >>hard as they did against Barca
>I find it hard to call it a better game than this.
Maybe you should read it again, the Barca game wasnt ‘a’ great game but Bilbao pressed even more, were more aggressive and was probably ‘their’ best game of the year. A swamp fest might not be pretty but it doesnt preclude a team from doing all the things well.
I havent seen them more than 3-4 times so I cant comment on the latter but I agree with Raj: Bilbao didnt play their game of the year against United. Then again, after seeing Ajax play keep away with them for the 2nd half, I think its maybe because every euro team seems like Barca to United. Wait till BATE or Cluj do the same next season!!
Yes. Tell us more.
Could you give a build up / variations for each session?
Pretty please
Barcelona, Newcastle, and now Bilbao have pressed United into submission, all tallying three goals. If I’m Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, or Liverpool I’m buying young skill players who have the stamina to press and play out of the back all summer long. If I’m Sir Alex Ferguson, I don’t know how you leave Paul Scholes out of the return leg if you truly want to win Europa. He would have at the very least help clog up the space between United’s back line and midfield and his long passing could have helped undo Bilbao on the counter, which is where they looked particular vulnerable today.
The concern I would have with Scholes is that after the strong start last season, teams got wise to him having too much time on the ball and started pressing him more. Even before the injuries hit, Scholes was less impactful. The team didn’t really turn it around until Carrick got out of the doghouse and hit a really good form. Obviously he wasn’t the only one (Rooney getting back in form was key). But Carrick was able to deal with EPL-style pressure a bit better than Scholes had been. Of course that hit the wall against Barca, but clearly they’re far above EPL-style pressure.
Michael’s comments about Carrick not being the best under pressure are as applicable to Scholes as he’s gotten older. There have been a few times where opponents have applied consistent pressure to him, and it’s lessened his effectiveness. I don’t think he’s better than Carrick under pressure now.
Setting that aside, if SAF was expecting this level of pressure from Bilbao (and given Bilbao’s performance against Barca earlier this year he should have), it was strange to start *Jones* paired with Giggs. Giggs+Carrick were pressured like crazy by Barca in the first half of the Final last year, with that 1-1 far more flattering to ManU than the flow of the game really was. Jones is even less comfortable under pressure than Carrick, with the exception of his bomber runs forward. In central role, Giggs isn’t rock solid under pressure either. The notion that this pairing could anchor the center against Bilbao’s flood of bodies was… odd.
I vehemently disagree with the idea that Scholes isn’t better than Carrick under pressure. Scholes is a whole different level of class on the ball than Carrick, and is often the first person Carrick looks to for relief. Aside from the FA cup run in with Man City (his first game back) and the Spurs game (the whole team was pretty sloppy in possession) he has been absolutely dominant and controlled the games entirely.
Plus, even though Bilbao pressed, Man United still found plenty of space, they were just dreadful with their passes and wasted opportunities.
And I think the team selection reflected SAF’s decision to go after the league title by giving players like Scholes/Carrick, Welbeck, and Rio a rest.
Exactly how many of those games this year that he played was United central MF under high pressure like tonight? The Spurs game, which you admit he, along with the rest of the team, were sloppy which I chalk up to the pressure. Any others?
If you let Scholes have time on the ball, he can cause problems. Pressure him consistently? He has problems. Perhaps not 4-5 years ago, but now and last year. Teams didn’t do it at the start of the season. Once they figured it out, they did it more. Take a look at the back-to-back loses to Pool and Chelsea last year. Scholes+Carrick = 5-2. United played the Blues three more times that year with Carrick+Giggs. Three straight wins, Premiership and a trip to the CL Final. It wasn’t until a team was able to take it to the next level of pressuring Carrick and Giggs that they got exposed. But Carrick+Scholes already had. They only played one more “big” game together: the loss to City in the FA Cup semis.
Scholes is a saint, all United fans love him, we don’t say bad things about him. I love him do as a United Fan. But the opponents keep him under watch and he’s far less effective these days. We’re a bit lucky that opponents haven’t regularly figured it out. We’re also probably lucky that the Spurs game had the lie of the final scoreline which might keep teams from viewing it as a useful study aid to gain ideas for playing United. If they do watch it, a dip in Scholes form is likely.
My man, I don’t understand what you’re trying to say, “figure Scholes out?” You mean managers are just now coming to the conclusion that Scholes is good on the ball after 17 years? That’s crazy. It’s also disingenuous and faulty to somehow pin United’s success late in the season last year to the absence of Paul Scholes in the squad, while seemingly ignoring the fact that Chicharito hit a blistering form later in the season and that United tend to perform better in the latter half of campaigns in general. You also fail to recognize that Scholes, being 36 at the time, could have been physically worn out after playing so many games.
And United were sloppy against Spurs…because they were sloppy. Sure Spurs pressed, but United and Rooney in particular also uncharacteristically gave away easy balls and took bad touches regardless of whether or not they were marked.
And Norwich pressed United a great deal and Scholes was very impressive in that match, earning an 8.6 whoscored rating and was man of the match….
I don’t agree on your assessment of Scholes. If he’s put under pressure, he won’t have much impact with his longer balls. But he’ll play a shorter pass with one touch into an area where there’s no pressure. Or dribble past the opponent. And also he’ll make a dart into space after that being available for a return pass.
When the opponents put pressure on United then Scholes is the best player to have on the pitch. Giggs is the second best – he can dribble or pass his way out of nearly any position as well. Others are not as good.
Of course if the opponents concentrate on a player he won’t score and assist as much. But that opens up space for others and yet Scholes won’t totally useless. He’ll still be available for a pass nearly all the time.
the omission of scholes surprised me, it was notable that when carrick came on, they managed to maintain an element of composure, retain the ball for slightly longer and build some reasonable attacks. However him coming from the bench probably meant that his impact was always going to be reduced, most of the united players displayed little patience in possession and one sub wasnt going to change that. Having watched Manchester City’s game also, it is astonishing to think that a team with such riches had virtually no real composure or passing quality in front of the back 4 (Whilst i rate Gareth Barry, I always think of him as an 8/10 player who can keep you ticking over but doesnt possess the impact of a scholes/carrick). With David Pizzaro warming the bench, they had absolutely no calmness in deep positions, the opposite was very apparent of Bilbao. I find (particularly in Europe) there must be a period of the game where possession muust be maintained for possessions sake, not necessarily to barca like levels but in deeper positions. I have always thought good attacking was like the hokey-cokey, you put the ball in-out, in-out and gaps appear
The requirement for a “Regista” like player is something ZM has mentioned, form permitting I think it is a near necessity for Carrick to start at the Euros.
England could potentially play a good possession game (Gasp!) with Carrick and Parker holding and Welbeck as a target man. It wouldn’t be an explosive team (there would be a desperate need for Gerrard circa 2008), but Sturridge could come on if the game needed to be opened up.
Problem with your buying suggestion is that United will certainly look to buy midfielders in the summer. This si certainly the way to play against United this year, but next year…maybe not.
oh i was being a bit tongue-in-cheek about buying players because I’m a United fan and there a ton of other things that need to go right in order to effectively press a team for a full 90 minutes and beyond. But I wouldn’t say it wouldn’t work because United will buy a good midfielder this summer, because unfortunately we’ve been saying that, and have needed that, for the last 5 years.
Spanish teams in full form can crush every European team at any given moment. Great work by Bielsa.
Could you not say that about any team though, really? Teams from most of the top leagues at full form are dangerous to play against
Getting back to the game though, it was funny that prior to the game i was reading about Bielsa’s training regime, he seems to work his players extremely hard so their stamina seems to be very good. I love teams that press, IMO it’s such a hard thing to play against, if teams advance and become more used to pressing football teams will take a positive step forward IMO
Also, i like to criticise long ball football but tonight again showed how effective it can be when used correctly
PS i love this site, how can i get better at analysing the game?
I’m in massive agreement about the fitness aspect of things, susaeta NEVER stopped running. Nearing the end of the game he was sprinting back to track Evra showing great energy and quality of sprint. On the long ball point, I can understand why it is criticised, but I dont agree with the criticism. I insist on Long Ball being referred to as Long Passing, the word passing indicates a attitude of mind. If a player can play a long pass then brilliant, if they have an aerially powerful player then there is nothing wrong with using his strength. It takes quality and intelligence to spot and exploit this opportunity. My issue is with unintillgent use of the ball in these situations, frequently United hit a ball forward to break the press of Bilbao. They knew where the space was, kicked the ball forward and assumed the pace of Hernandez would do the rest. Smashing an aimless ball forward to a small striker has always been LONG BALL, unintelligent footbal to me. At it’s best, the long pass is a discipline in football with equal worth and right to exist as short passing football.
The same can be said of any top league.
interesting to see ManUtd so dominated at home. Against a “bigger name side” they probably would have been happy to sit back and counter after going 1-0 up. And that is where they were most dangerous in the first half. Against sides that have more skill in the midfield United usually sit back (countless ties with Arsenal come to mind, or the clash vs Spurs at the weekend). But Atletic is not a big name. So maybe they did not dare to do so at home.
A wonderful game – the scoreline flattered United, if anything.
After the match, I found it interesting that, since the 1999 Champions League win, a lot of United’s most decisive European defeats have come at the hands of Spanish opposition: the 3-2 to Real Madrid in 2000, the 3-1 at the Bernabeu in 2003, the 2-0 and 3-1 final defeats to Barcelona, and now the 3-2 against Bilbao. Contrast that with their record against the Italian clubs, and it’s really quite something. Then I remembered a del Bosque quote from 2003, which was quite telling: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/soccer/news/2003/03/20/spain_rdp/
“If I had to pick I’d prefer to face Barcelona or Manchester United. Between those two, it would be the English side because they play good football and they let you play. That gives you more chances.”
In all those defeats, United were remarkably open (as they’ve been at many points during this season), played a naïve 4-4-2 (or thereabouts), and in the latter 3 defeats, Ryan Giggs played in central midfield.
It’s a big contrast to the fundamentally counterattacking side of 2006-09, which did so well in Europe, and where the midfield spent lots of time sitting deep and absorbing pressure (in 2008, the 2-0 win at Roma and both legs of the Barcelona tie stand out), while hitting teams at startling pace on the break through Ronaldo et al.
Notwithstanding all the caveats – it was the Europa League, complacency in the Champions League, young players still to learn European play – isn’t it strange how slack United have been in midfield this season? Even since Ronaldo and Tevez departed, the past two seasons have seen some highly disciplined displays (in Milan, away at Chelsea), but there haven’t really been any performances of that nature this season.
Very interesting. Also, how important the influence of Carlos Q in Europe? (United got to the final the season without him, in fairness, but still…)
Giggs is weird in central midfield. For long periods he’s terrible, but he often plays one or two brilliant passes. Is it worth the poor distribution, lack of mobility and poor defensive ability for the potential assists? Hmmm. Not if Hernandez is in this form
I was thinking about Queiroz just after the game. Strange that they got to two finals after he left, but played their most attractive European football in 2006-08.
Giggs in midfield: he has the (low) percentages and (minimal) defensive awareness of a trequartista, but in a position where those two attributes are most valuable! He’s the ultimate example of the 80/20 rule – I wrote briefly about Giggs and this here: http://www.stretford-end.com/2012/02/things-giggs-pareto-principle-steve-bruces-winger-scotty-and-more/
One last thing: in a lot of ways Athletic was the worst club United could’ve come up against – they had size and strength (like Newcastle) pressed intensely (like Barcelona) and got through them with neat combinations.
Carlos Queiroz convinced Ferguson of many things… one them was the dynamic 433, others were signing Ronaldo, and selling RVN.
Since he left Ferguson quite conveniently reverted to his default formation of 442, with maximum emphasis on width.. a formula which he knows so well. Now its conjecture whether Fergie forgot about 433 or that he deems it unsuitable. Recently he said that he prefers 442 like Capello because it provides with ‘natural’ way for British sides to attack; it provides him with certainty in the prediction of player behavior in possession and out of it.
Since Utd have lost their counter-attack pieces, and to revert to 433 means generally, nowadays, to adopt at least, some features of Guardiola’s system, it becomes apparent that United will stick with with 442, which should inform their transfer recruits in the summer… when inevitably the sound of failure, finally hits Ferguson’s ears.
Rob: how badly does United need to get Javi Martinez to address some of these issues? Setting aside your desire to get a United kit with your own name on it, how critical is it to get that level of all around game into either hold MF or central defense?
I’ve been pushing for the Javi Martinez signing since before the 2010 World Cup. Think of it this way: our best midfield features at least 2 of the guys who made up our best midfield 6 years ago.
As promising as Cleverley has been, he’s not solving one of the biggest problems (letting other teams through)… it’s just this general reversion to 4-4-2… it happened last year but in a more controlled manner… Carrick was basically our best player in the run to that final. But I still see a huge gap in the sense of someone who can take over a game and dictate tempo, either fast or slow. For all my huge praise of Carrick, he doesn’t seem to have the personality to impose that on a big game.
One of the big disappointments tonight was that United kept trying to play at a high tempo, very direct, for the whole game. It seemed very misguided when Athletic seemed to struggle against sides who played at slow pace, then sped up nearer to the box.
I genuinely am not too worried about central defence… thought Evans had a fine game, not truly culpable for any of the goals. They’re all under Rio’s tutelage, and once Smalling gets a run, they’ll learn the game, and especially with their physiques, they’ll learn to play against the big strong guys I hope.
This has been, and I’m sure will continue to be, a weird old season. Our league record against the top sides has been superb, as has been the away record. The midfield has been open everytime Carrick .
hasn’t played, and he’s not even a defensive midfielder, which says everything.
Javi Martinez would be a superb signing, as would Ander Herrera… but now that they realise the potential of Bielsa’s project, it would be even harder to lure them away, I think.
This is a United side in major transition, and while SAF’s tactics have been weird in Europe, it’s still an experience that should live with the players. Long term, I see at least one more CL final on the cards. As this season has demonstrated more often than not, it’s a very good Manchester United in the making.
J. Martinez has a 40 mils release clause. Considering Utd’s debt I personally don’t think they would go for him. Plus there are other spanish clubs like Real and Barca who want him as well.
United buy Martinez? You are evil. Martinez ought to stay with BIlbao and push them to greatness, not leave to go sit on the effing bench of a team with a huge squad.
Man U should play Carrick and Anderson in midfield with Giggs and Scholes as backup until Fletcher and Cleverly are healthy, and forget this “Jones is a midfielder” ish while they’re at tit; I know ZM loves Evans/Smalling as a CB partnership, but the future is clearly Jones/Smalling.
But let me get back to how despicable the “this guy did great against us; let’s buy him” mentality is: in the words of Tupac, “die slow, muthafucka.”
It’s simply because, of all the united mf players, Giggs is the only creative force who can make sth out of none. The wingers like Nani and Young has some flair and can dribble nicely and score goals. But running down the flank past the full back and crossing to the center doesn’t mean that someone’s a creative force.
I think SAF expects Cleverly and, particularly, Anderson to replace the role that Giggs is playing at this point. Both have more mobility and defensive ability.
I agree that Nani and Young are not up to playing agsinst a strong opposition from the continent.
I think Giggs plays in midfield like he plays on the wing – if he gets a moment of time on the ball, he’ll try an incisive pass or a dribble. Its all quite hit and miss for him in that sense. Usually midfielders in the United system are needed to get the ball out wide to the flair players. But he creates from midfield as well.
Don’t know if its good or not as he gives possession away in areas where he maybe should be concentrating on keeping possession and getting others involved and pinning the opposition back.
I think we can assess the 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 system played now next season or the season after that when the core of United are not in their first or second season of playing for United. I’m not sure how well it will work, although with Rooney playing ever deeper it is not too far from being three in midfield in some games.
I remember hearing something about the proliferation of French coaches and players after the 98 WC and 2000 EC. In football, I think you get very obvious trends and a real “Zeitgeist”. People will copy what is popular and proven to be effective. This isn’t to say united are trying to be a spanish style team, but being heavily involved in coaching and the football community, people are talking about barcelona-style football and keeping the ball more and more. The image of united as a big club means they will never back down against any team, from ZM’s posts this season we can gather that no english team wants to play the underdog, they want to attack and they want the favourable image that goes with it. It’s funny really, because culturally British football has been direct (not necessarily long) and so this is at complete variance of the template everybody is now extolling the virtues of! What you get is a very odd artficial hybrid of the two, which doesnt work at all. All the players with composure and passing quality are close to the goal near the defenders, there is virtually no control or (though it pains me to say it) “game-management”. Finished, urggh, need to have a wash after that last sentence
I was wondering ZM,
I recall you saying you hoped Chile did well at the World Cup, because if they were then maybe teams would try to emulate them and we would see more exciting attacking football.
Do you think if Athletic beat Man Utd/do well in Europa/win the Copa Del Rey/qualify for the CL, we will see copycat tactics.
Or do you think that Bielsa’s tactics/methods/ideology are too idiosyncratic for emulation?
Also, considering Bielsa had to make a ‘compromise’ between his style and Athletic’s more direct approach, surely this ‘fusion’ is something the England international team should consider. An emphasis on passing without being too tika taka, direct play without being too Stoke?
On a side note, thank you for turning me on to Bielsa, I got everyone at work to watch tonights match and they were quite literally shocked, stunned and amazed by Athletics football.
Last point – pleasure!
I think he can influence, not sure many will copy. He is a bit bonkers and I’m surprised how much he’s compromised to be honest. Before I thought he was a pure ideologist.
Have seen the Bielsa – England thing suggested before, actually. Being direct but on the floor, basically being vertical. Makes sense, certainly…
Maybe the biggest problem with him coaching England or too close copycatting is that a lot of players won’t submit to his methods. After all, if you’re a United player and you win a trophy every year or two anyways, what motivates you to change? I don’t think its surprising that Bielsa has overperformed with sides which do not boast big players (no disrespect to Chile or the Basques meant). Similarly Zeman, Sacchi, Rehhagel, Magath, et al have all succeeded with lower reputation clubs in a way which most managers couldn’t.
Influence is probably on the mark though.
Also, “On a side note, thank you for turning me on to Bielsa, I got everyone at work to watch tonights match and they were quite literally shocked, stunned and amazed by Athletics football.” I’ve got a few friends (not to mention myself) into following “El loco” thanks to ZM!
Edit: not, anon, but Cogito here.
You might have a point, in which case it is a sad indictment of top level footballers and their (understandable) egos.
Either way it is perhaps a positive, since if more smaller teams take up Beilsa-esq methods, then perhaps we would see those teams becoming more competitive and giving the top teams more of a run for their money. I’m reminded of the speech in Moneyball.
“The problem we’re trying to solve is that there are rich teams and there are poor teams. Then there’s fifty of crap, and then there’s us. It’s an unfair game. And now we’ve been gutted. We’re like organ donors for the rich. Boston’s taken our kidneys, Yankees have taken our heart. And you guys just sit around talking the same old “good body” nonsense like we’re selling jeans. Like we’re looking for Fabio. We’ve got to think differently. We are the last dog at the bowl. You see what happens to the runt of the litter? He dies.”
I think the more Bielsas whipping smaller teams into shape, the better.
Oh, completely agreed. Though I am an ardent Bayern fan I am not ignorant to the vast limitations to our approach (successful as it is).
I was reading an article a few years ago which suggested that part of the decline in Sacchism (or similar intensive team-systems) was the liberalization of the transfer market in the globalization McFootball era. Bielsa’s are of course a good thing.
Interesting then, how Dunga’s tactics fit in (and the idea that “systems are dead”). Dunga’s Brazil was tactically interesting but not a team-system (but an individual-system). The idea that systems are dead and hard work is for losers (or, as English pundits say, teams with “heart”) is as widely-held and false as the idea that we live in a politically post-ideological age with the advent of global democracy/capitalism (let’s please not debate this, though, it’s not the place, I’m just point out another example of this trend in thought).
well, Rehhagel had problems at Bayern, like other managers had before and after (that’s normal for a strong manager at Bayern, especially when he is no friend of the media). Magath won Bundasliga and the Cup back to back and was sacked as soon as the players saw an opportunity. Bayern is not as tough as Chelsea, but not the best place for a manager. It has some reason why the club was called FC Hollywood in the 90s.
Sacchi at a lower reputation club? Maybe the Dutch players at Milan had just better work ethics than most of the players in bis leagues and were used to listen to their managers.
In terms of lower rep teams I was alluding to Rehhagel with Kaiserslautern and Greece, Sacchi with Parma, Magath with Stuttgart, Wolfsburg, and Schalke, Zeman with Pescara and so on.
Thanks for the reply!
If it makes sense then perhaps your the man to formulate it Mr Cox, have you ever considered writing more ‘theoretical’/textbook stuff?
I’m sure you must have your own ideas on what is the ‘winning formula’ (wink wink nudge nudge).
Something akin to American Football’s ‘offensive co-ordinators’ who think up set plays and combinations, much like in Massimo Lucchesi’s books or Allen Wade’s coaching manual.
Unless you’ve already been hired by Barcelona, in which case my question is moot, or do you think it would be like Bill James and you would have to wait 30 years before anyone took notice of your work?
Hi ZM, as the case with Joel, you introduced me to Bielsa…many thanks! I live in the USA and could not watch the game, but was reading live blogs and I kept imagining what was going on…I hope it was as beautiful as I thought it was…
I kept checking this website for a pre-match analysis, but thanks for the quick posting…I had to read it five times to get it (as with most of your article…hahaha)
About the copying of styles, I truly hope it happens, but as others have said, the stamina and difficulty is incredible…in all honesty, I’m surprised Bielsa has been able to do it at Athletic…but I hope he can accomplish a lot with the team…I doubt english coaches would adopt it though, they strike me as somewhat close-minded to some of these tactics, and I would imagine players would get bored of running around all day
I too had a friend, who predicted a big win for Utd, as he thinks there are only two teams who play well in Liga. Normally I like to watch matches alone, but I was sure Bilbao would come up on this game, and watched yday’s game with this friend. By the end of first half, his voice was so low and by the end of it, he was dumb struck. He couldnt believe what he saw from Athletic. I guess, I will never have to hear his routine crap from him that Liga is joke.
I just told him, dont worry in fact you are lucky. If Bilbao had put in exactly the same pressing they did against Barca, this would have been awful.
I felt Athletic was like 20% less efficient than against Barca.
SAF was concerned about Bilbao pressing but made a wrong choice for his concern. Jones was used as a cm in order to “physically” deal with the pressing. It was okay. But then, considering his poor ball control & passing as a converted center-half, Jones’ partner should’ve been either Scholes or Carrick, who can dictate the tempo and can rescue Jones from panicking when he gets the ball. Giggs can play a central role but he just can’t be a deep lying playmaker by nature. His best as a CM comes when he ventures forward, like the first goal situation. The midfield zone finally became more stabilized after the introduction of Carrick.
It has been a problem THROUGHOUT THIS SEASON for united playing against an aggressive, pressing side. As a united fan, it is utterly disappointing that the team still haven’t found any solution to the issue except for relying on the team spirit.
Anyway, it was a great game. One of the best games I’ve watched this season.
Obviously a deep-lying playmaker is a must buy for United, but I felt that they could have benefited by having a Llorente clone (or next season Llorente himself) up front instead of Hernandez, so that they would have a better chance playing a long ball game. Given the midfield options that they had, trying to battle through the center was never going to work. IIRC it was suggested after the Basel game that Fergie would do well to sign Llorente, though obviously for very different reasons. But broadly speaking United don’t seem to have enough variation going forward.
I think there was different reasoning. Just rotating players and believing that the ones going out can handle the pressure and if not then learn from this game to evolve their game to be able to handle it next time.
Had United started with Scholes, Carrick, Welbeck and Nani instead of Park, Giggs, Chicharito and Jones then I think United would not have been troubled by the heavy pressing. Welbeck especially would’ve made a huge difference – his movement and ability under pressure would’ve relieved the pressure. Nani does well under pressure as well and Scholes-Carrick in midfield would’ve passed their way out of trouble, something Jones couldn’t do it and Giggs did at times, but not well enough. He is a winger playing in midfield and it shows.
Chicharito hasn’t replicated his good form from last season and wasn’t a big problem for Bilbao. He comes short a lot more this season and isn’t good at that. In some situations its needed, but he seems to overdo it in my opinion. His main objective should still be to make runs across the defense and behind the defense, creating room for the player behind him. Last night it wouldn’t have helped as Bilbao had their deep midfielder taking care of Rooney, but there was rarely a moment where someone tried to put him through.
I disagree, the Carrick-Scholes duo has been prone to being overrun by energetic pressing midfielders. Sandro and Livermore gave them trouble despite what the scoreline that flattered MU. Similarly, were overrun in the 2nd half vs Chelsea last year at the Bridge.
Do you think the Giggs/Carrick duo were just fortunate not to see such pressing last year in the run the PL title and CL final? I find it hard to believe that duo would have fared much better yesterday. Maybe highlights Ferdinand’s ball playing out of the back?
In an odd way, I think part of United’s problem is the wingers. Don’t get me wrong the players are fantastic, I genuinely think Valencia is one of the best traditional wingers around, but we rely on them quite a lot and when they don’t do much like in this game it can leave us outnumbered in the centre. Indeed against teams like Barca and Athletic it feels like we have been beaten by teams who play more of a wide front line as opposed to wingers and with more players in the centre.
It makes me wonder if United would succeed more against some teams with a system like that. Rafael, Fabio and Evra are good going forward, could they use that more and have a front three of Rooney, Hernandez and Welbeck, maybe throw Nani in there instead of one of them? I kindof think we have the players for that, although I also kindof think it’d be a total disaster
Fantastic game though, watching Athletic was a genuine joy and while I hope United will get through, I also hope this team manages to achieve big things.
Spot on. MU wingers are both strengths and drawbacks. Nani and Young (and even Valencia to some extent) are too predictable and one directional. Against lesser oppositions, they shine but when they meet a quality footballing opposition, they make midfield vulnerable. SAF should have taken off Young, not Park, to send in Anderson or Carrick.
Like Robben and partially also Ribery at Bayern. Like Ronaldo at Real Madrid, until Mourinho during this season convinced/taught him to also regularly take part in defensive and build-up play.
If anything, the reverse is true of the Robbery duo. They tend to perform well in big games when there is more space to play in, but against weak, well organized opposition they can get frustrated.
I disagree with you. In small games, United’s wingers shine because United’s midfield can control the game and set great passes, providing creativity. In big games, the low quality of MFs is shown and the wingers are not so eficient. That’s just my opinion…
I too think that manu in may ways are overreliant on their wingers. The Spurs game were in some ways similar to the Bilbao game, all though United wingers became decisive in wining the game in the end. They were completely overrun in vast periods of the game, but Spurs lacked the efficency of which United got from their wingers with two goals and two assists.
Surely the issue stems from central midfield, rather than how effective the wide men are? If United play 2 CMs, they will be over-ran by teams with 3 CMs, so of course the wingers will see less of the ball and have less of an impact on the game. Also, if they are having to venture inside to make up the man disadvantage in midfield, they are being prevented from focusing on keeping their width and stamping their authority on the match.
That is probably why they wanted to sign Sneijder…
What would you guys (or girls) call Athletic’s formation?
A 4-1-4-1 or a loose 4-3-3?
who cares?
it’s a 4 defenders, 1 striker formation, so 2 players by side and 3 central midfielders in a reversed triangle here that’s all you need to know…
4231, 433, 4141 are often the same formation changing with situations
4 or 3/5 defenders, 1 or 2 strikers, if one striker is it a normal or reversed triangle in central midfield, with those 3 questions you have all the basic tactical information you need to start to read a game, much more useful than the 4 vertical numbers thrown into the void
They both played 4-4-2.
If you want to get really technical, Man United had Jones as the lone holder with Rooney playing a free role but still as a striker. Meanwhile, Bilbao were a more conventional 4-4-2, giving Herrera a free role. Not a surprise: they’re both number 10s.
Sorry — De Marcos, not Herrera.
2-3-4-1, 2-3-2-3, or even 2-1-4-3
just from the line-up graphics.
I would say Athletic play a 3-1-3-3 or a 3-3-1-3. I have tried to study them since around the middle of January, so can’t comment before then. However, always Iturrapse plays just in front of the back 2 central defenders which enables one of the furthest back 2 defenders to move to the side of the pitch and Iturrapse plays as one of the central defenders in that particular situation. When Bilbao have the ball, Iturrapse always is the furthest back and links up with the midfield. The ‘full-backs’ play more of a traditional right-midfield and left-midfield in my opinion, especially Aurtenexte.
As Michael writes for the whoscored website, I’m sure he won’t mind me mentioning their website. The produce heat maps after each game and plot the average position where each player was. This gives an accurate acount of a true formation for me. Just click on their website, then La Liga, then click Bilbao, then any game, then match report, then scroll down and click on player positions.
It’s really interesting to try and analyse what Bilbao do and how. But it’s not easy! That is half the pleasure (:
who else thinks llorente & martinez would be great playing for man united? (or anywhere in england actually…)
carroll or lukaku the new drogba? please…
and martinez could be the ball handling but still tackling midfielder they always seem to lack (especially with giggs&carrick there) and force them to play jones there
does united have money to spend this summer or the financial fair play kicks in or something?
and muniain would be great anywhere in europe…
Aside from the pleasure of seeing United thumped and their twerp of a manager conceding defeat, this game is once again instructive, as it shows how outdated the English approach to football is.
Superb tactical analysis, as per usual, but the technical ability of the Athletic players stood out to me.
Man U’s style, approach and type of player works in the EPL. Against modern football, it’s shown up badly.
Players have little technical ability and simply cannot play the kind of game the Spanish and Germans can.
That’s evident from England’s international performances of the past years. Capeelo stated quite plainly; ‘We play 4-4-2 baceuse English players aren’t technical enough.’
void
Players have little technical ability ?? A front four of Rooney, Hernandez, Young, Park has little technical ability?? As a Utd fan, I like the way Utd keep their intent on creating chances and scoring goals, their defense is inexperienced (this season)– but that is the transition any team likely to pass — and by blooding these defenders against a top pressing side, they are only going to get better in matches to come…
The worry of course is the Midfield, not because they don’t employ 4-2-3-1 formation, with the current formation of two in the midfield, and two wingers tucking in, Utd should be competing best against any midfield, but the problem is there aren’t any youngsters blooded in the midfield, Anderson and Cleverly are too frequently injured to get any stretch of games, Jones’ heart lies elsewhere in Central Defense…
Transition in midfield personnel isn’t happening now and it could cost Utd badly in next couple of seasons..
I think our friend is failing to make the distinction between what players CAN do with the ball, and what they ACTUALLY do with the ball. Get Rooney and Xavi on the same pitch and tell them to pass the ball 60 yards to a target. They will both be able to do it pretty much the same. However the difference is, when, how and why this decision will be made in the game. If it is a simple matter of technique then we can expect United to be the best team in the world very very soon, for if you can reach 3 champions league finals in 4 years with no technical ability then you must have something very very special elsewhere.
I’m really dissapointed I didn’t get to see this. I’ve been an admirer of Bilbao for a while now, due to the possibility that they possess 4 possible future Spanish first teamers, and thanks to Michael, I’ve become and fan of Bielsa.
On that note, does anybody know where I can get a video replay of this game in it’s entirety?
The channe; 5 webiste
Or else try and order a dvd of it @):)
I hope people realize that La Liga is not quite the crappy league people make it out to be
. There’s a huge gap between Barca-Madrid and the rest of La Liga, but there’s a huge gap between Barca-Madrid and the rest of the world. Who’s to say they wouldn’t be as dominant in the EPL or Serie A? It’s not because of a lack of quality in La Liga.
problem with La Liga is that it’s run by idiots and media. Media hypes everything to an extend that it can imply disgust and always pointing problems of their rival (im talking RM and Barca’s media). I’m a barca fan but i cant stand the media pointing utter crap from RM and vice versa.
Primera Division is good to watch, good attacking football (quite similar to Bundesliga actually) but ultimately doesnt amount to much. Outside the big 2 clubs you have not too many Star Players or ’star managers’, and this is true of Germany too. They’re fun leagues, no doubt, but not worth keeping huge tabs on really.
A league that “doesn’t amount to much” is having all but one of its teams in Europe progressing? And the likes of Falcao, Llorente, Soldado, etc surely warrant keeping tabs on, unless you like being surprised when they score on you.
Don’t fret over the EPL fanboys as I’m sure they are the only people deluded enough to still believe that the EPL is all the propagandatells them it is. Obviously if you switch madrid and barca with the to two teams in any league the gap would be enormous. We saw this when barca destroyed, no embarrassed, bayer lever the other night. there simply are no top teams left in the epl.
yeah, teams like Bilbao & Valencia are already really good – imagine if their TV money wasn’t distributed so inequitably…
The problem of Bilbao approach is that you cannot keep doing it for whole season. I don’t think United can fully prepare for this game since League is much more important and United is short of available players. Only team can cope high pressure defense method is Barcelona mainly because they don’t need to defend 75% of game time.
I don’t think United can win this cup anyway. United defender is way too inexperienced 22 or 21 is baby age for defender. Evans+Smalling+John+Giggs+Rafael, well I cannot see any sort of solid defece from this line up.
Oh btw it was fantastic game from Bilbao, some of attacking is well executed, Don’t sit and defend at second leg because United still has some old stock who can score few in the brink of eye, I think Bilbao will through though.
Great analysis as always Mr Cox, it would appear that when teams decide not to give United all the respect in the world and actually challenge them, then in fact they are not as good as people believe. Ferguson is excellent with mind games and many teams have lost before they plat at OT. Yet Ferguson lacks the tactical nous to deal with certain managers. His record against Mourinho and Guardiola is not good and Bielsa showed last night that he is smarter than Ferguson. Man Utd rarely change from a 4-4-2 with Rooney dropping in and Bielsa played it perfectly. The worry for me if I was a United fan would be that no changes were made to alter this. It is so one dimensional with United, no wonder they have struggled in Europe.
Another point is that United cannot handle pressing. Especially in midfield. Barcelona destroyed them yet even Basel and Newcastle have shown that applying pressure to this team can lead to success. It really says a lot about how we develop British players, as this United team is very British in it’s style. Carrick is a great midfielder under no pressure yet he can’t think quick enough when spaces are tight. We don’t develop our players well enough to deal with the modern game, which is played in tight spaces at high speed. What is the future like for United, what is the future for England?! Interesting to say the least.
Top work again Mr. ZM, this had probably been the most eagerly anticipated write-up for a very long time – ironic that it’s a “mere” Europa League match!
I won’t comment too much given how in-depth your knowledge of La Ligua and Biesla in particular is, but thought I’d give my two cents towards comparisons with the English game (and game in general) that’s in comparison, tactically streets behind.
Is it a coincidence that the most enjoyable, attacking, and often successful top-end sides of the past few seasons have played in this high-tempo, high-pressing fashion? Dortmund and Barca are the clear examples (and to a lesser, more recent extent this season’s Real Madrid) – and to paraphrase a popular quote (Guardiola has developed…..) – “a team of superstars working like dogs”.
With the right team, the right work-ethic it becomes practically unplayable and is in stark contrast to the depressed, lethargic looking top sides elsewhere. I.e. your recent European giants –Chelseas and Liverpools, etc. Bloated by money and egotism!
Perhaps it’s a direct response to this ‘galactico’ culture that uber-money has brought to the game. The old adage that there’s no substitute for hard-work. Where it really clicks, as Biesla has proven with Athletic Bilbao, is where quality, technical players brought up in a technical, forward thinking environment meets the unflinching professional desire to win – values of proper medal-winning athletes.
Thanks again for the write-up, can’t wait to see the next match – Bilbao were a joy to watch.
“With the right team, the right work-ethic it becomes practically unplayable and is in stark contrast to the depressed, lethargic looking top sides elsewhere. I.e. your recent European giants –Chelseas and Liverpools, etc. Bloated by money and egotism!”
I think wage inflation has got so high in england that essentially the teams are no longer competitive.
In Spain and Italy we’ve seen a reset which allows the sides with smaller budgets to build a talented side at low cost.
Meanwhile in the prem people have to pay 70K-100k pcm for journeymen like Arteta and Podolski.
Tactically England is now 3 years off the curve having been ahead of the curve from 2004-8
Exactly right, there is nothing wrong at all with hard work and getting a sweat on. The mighty Juventus team of the 94-99 era was heralded by those in the know for unifying the organisation, determination and work rate of british teams with the technical patience and tactical understanding of the european teams. With the two in tandem it is terrifying to behold. Barcelona being the paradigm. It’s amusing to note that Carlos Rexach (major figure within barca’s periods of success) said “Running is for cowards”, wonder what he would make if Barca’s current dream team, or nightmare team if you are the opposition muahahahah!
I know this site is about tactics not philosophy but…
No one wants to talk about the fact that all Bilbao players are spanish from the basque region? (basque born, basque origin or grown in the basque country). They basically grow 80% of their players in Lezama, their stadium is called The Cathedral, players in the team are not treated as stars, but they call them ‘chavales’ (something like ‘kids’). And this team is on La Liga year after year, fighting with the best, with their limitations as they cannot hire anyone but producing fantastic players that are all around La Liga. Now they could convince a top trainer to come in. Excellent results so far.
It makes you think how football could be…
It is discussed somewhere above. It does make the result even more impressive. Not many clubs with such a philosophy, I admire them.
Just wonder how other team prepare for Bilbao match? Quite unusual tactic to counter for unfamiliar opponent. I feel United cannot prepare this game very well.
Giggs and Jones is a weird midfield partnership in the sense that neither of them is actually a centre mid. They needed the experience of a player used to playing in that position day in, day out if they wanted to pass their way around the pressing Bilbao players.
But, it seemed to me as if Ferguson had a completely different strategy in mind to counter Bilbao’s pressing. The diagram of Athletic’s pressing system shows that the only free United player at any given point of time was either Smalling or Evans. It was evident that Smalling and Evans had been told to carry the ball out of defense whenever possible. Both made a few forays into the attacking half with the ball at their feet, before turning back and playing a backward pass as they were perhaps hesitant to play a pass to a marked player considering the gap they had left in behind them. I thought this was where the Park and Young (especially Young) could have shown better movement and tried to escape their marker to give Smalling or Evans an easy forward pass.
In the second half though, Bilbao’s pressed even better and Munian and De Marcos helped Llorente out in pressing the United centre backs, and Smalling’s and Evans’ forward forays disappeared altogether.
Your conclusion seems extremely apt to me.
‘United knew what to expect from Athletic, but simply seemed unprepared for such heavy pressing.’
And like many others who have commented before me, I confess to being an admirer of Marcelo Bielsa because of this site. Your articles about Bielsa’s Chile got me very interested and I made sure to watch all of Chile’s World Cup matches and was suitably impressed.
Yes, they looked like rockets taking off. In addition to better movement up front, Jones could have moved deeper, dragging his pressor with him, and created a rotating carousel of sprinting CBs.
What a wonderful game of football. Probably the best game I have watched this season, and there have been some great matches this year.
Bilbao were absolutely superb, and a 2-3 scoreline really flatters United to be honest. Athletic had a similar amount of chances to the quantity that Manchester City created back in October. I don’t think anyone can argue that Bilbao could have won by a 3-4 goal margin in the end.
Having watched Spurs play Man Utd twice this season, I am once again frustrated that lots of English teams still approach Manchester United games with a sense of fear. Bilbao were fearless last night, they had a gameplan and they were confident in their own ability. They knew that United could struggle against heavy pressing and they played some great football and created a massive amount of chances. Tottenham have consistently gone into games against Manchester United feeling inferior, feeling as though they will need a slice or two of luck, and ultimately feeling sorry for themselves. Lots of English sides could learn a thing or two from Bilbao’s superb approach and mentality.
I can’t wait for the second leg now. Bilbao are magnificent at home, and the atmosphere will be amazing. It sounded like a home game for Athletic last night! In their last 12 home games, Bilbao have won 10 and drawn 2, and if Bilbao play like they did at home to Barcelona in November last year when they drew 2-2, Manchester United could end up embarrassed.
I would love to see Athletic Bilbao in the Champions League next season.
Man United – Well beaten by Athletic.
In defense, the CB’s couldn’t cope with Llorente. They were out-muscled in the air and on the ground, letting him hold up the ball excellently. Their passing out from the back was exposed by the heavy pressing too, United didn’t have anyone to play the ball long too (Hernandez hardly an option) so didn’t have an out ball when under pressure. At fullback, neither could get forward to effect play, due to heavy pressing and the constant threat of the wingers. Both also faced the constant overlaps of the wingbacks and were overloaded in their zone.
In midfield, the CM partnership did not work at all. Both aren’t comfortable sitting in midfield and want to move forward, this left gaps in behind them. Jones actually did a good defensive job on Herrera, but was poor on the ball himself, constantly giving it away. Giggs was a poor choice for this game; he was poor at tracking De Marcos, left space in behind him far too much and lost the ball whenever he tried to get forward to join the attack. United looked better when Carrick and Anderson came on, as both added much better passing from midfield even when under pressure and didnt leave as much space between them and the defense.
Outwide, Young and Park were pushed back into defensive positions for much of the game, too far away from goal to be a significant threat. Both are actually quite good at tracking back against attacking fullbacks, but this constant pressure seemed too much for the pair and they couldnt help their fullbacks out enough.
Up front, Rooney was Hernandez were poor. Rooney could have been the pivotal player for United here, by disrupting Iturraspe, he could have stopped Athletic controlling the game and also started mini-counter attacks for him and Hernandez. But Rooney rarely pressed anyone and was cut off from the ball, his goals were a rebound shot and a penalty – not really deserved from a poor performance. Hernandez was again a wrong choice by Ferguson, as he was never going to be an outball for his team when under the much predicted pressure Athletic put everyone under. Welbeck would have been a much better option, able to play the target man role much better than his team mate.
Overall, Ferguson made the wrong choices in Midfield and attack, where Welbeck and Carrick should have started the game. Arguably in defense they also missed Vidic against Llorente and I wonder if Jones would have done a better job at CB – he is better in the air and better at moving out from defense. United were dominated and are lucky to be in the game, but they are and could still go through with better preparation for the next game.
http://economicinterest.wordpress.com/ Give my blog a read if you get the chance.
Manu is so shite…
Interesting analysis, go on…
I had a great view of last nights game from the halfway line. Watching Bilbao, and Bielsa, was magnificent. The constantly changing shape of the side was excellent. More often than not without the ball they lined up in the 4-5-1 shape that ZM has shone above but with the ball they were so fluid. At times Jon Aurtenetxe pushed from left-back to hover in behind Llorente and with Iraola on the right flank at times it looked like 3-4-3 with the ball and even 3-3-1-3 after they conceded the first with Suseata and Muniain pushing high up the pitch and De Marcos hovering in behind Llorente. Inturraspe dropped very deep at times alongside Martinez and San Jose allowing the full-backs to push in to midfield. The whole game was fascinating. *RANT ALERT* The only shame was the 8:05 kick-off meant I had to leave with 10 minutes to go to get the train back to Nottingham. If it had been 7:45 I would have been fine but I missed the last 2 goals.
Bielsa took Atheltic’s numerical advantage in midfield and amplified it through wonderful movement, especially off the flanks.
United had a great deal of difficulty coping with Athletic’s fluidity. For much of the match, United defenders struggled to cover their zone while also marking their attackers due to Athletic’s dynamism. In turn, United’s defensive block became very disorganized which only compounded problems forcing Rooney, Young and Park to play very deep.
United’s defense looked like it could have coped with vertical and horizontal movement – but diagonal runs or ones that were more complex gave them significant difficulty as runners passed quickly through multiple zones.
Bielsa also did a very good job of seizing and attacking what’s now become a significant limitation for United – their play at full back. Evra is a shell of the player he once was. Rafael is inconsistent.
Atheltic were able to generate penetration through Susaeta. Park was often trying to pinch into the middle to support play there and Atheltic often generated 2 vs 1 situations on that side. Susaeta and Iraola created danger all evening.
This was critical because it really freed up Munian on the opposite flank. Munian is often the focal point of the Athletic’s transition play and attack. Their play didn’t have to be run through Munian as much as it sometimes does. In turn this helped Munian make dangerous runs off the flank all match into the middle.
Athletic’s first goal was really emblematic of many of these issues. Munian makes a diagonal run with the ball. Young, trying to stay in his wide defensive zone, doesn’t track him instead electing to pass him off the central midfielder whose zone Munian is entering. Giggs is out of position and watching the play.
Munian’s movement overloads the middle. Jones had been watching Llorente alongside Evans. But when Munian cuts centrally Jones is forced to come off Llorente leaving Evans 1 vs 1. Munian is able to make an easy entry pass to Llorente who holds up the ball well.
Park was pinching in centrally to make up for the numerical disadvantage. Iraola unopposed pushes up high. Park pinching in leavs Iraola unmarked. Susaeta pushes up 1 vs 1 with Evra.
When Susaeta gets the ball Evra backs off concerned about being beat. Evans leaves Llorente to support Evra wide. But Evans doesn’t aggressively commit as he’s still trying to man his central space.
At that point Ander Herrera makes a lovely forward run at a diagonal dragging Smalling out of his central deep position in the box.
Llorente makes a run forward anticipating a cross. But rather than tracking Llorente Jones stays in his “zone” thinking the deeper CB will pick up Llorente. But Herrera’s run has moved that CB out of position.
Susaeta – who is being afforded space – makes a simple cross to an unmarked Llorente.
Athletic carves open United’s block through two simple diagonal runs. One with the ball and one without.
Brilliant stuff from Athletic all evening.
Rooney did a diabolical job last night, defensively and positionally as well as in terms of possession. He is absolutely key when it comes to us using a 4-4-1-1/2 against sides who have a numerical advantage in central midfield. He was a let down in that regard. Defensively, he didn’t do a good job in terms of putting pressure on Bilbao when they brought the ball out and didn’t do enough when Jones & Giggs were getting outnumbered. Possession-wise, his suspect touch reared its ugly head again with sloppy possession (although credit to Bilbao’s pressing too) and was a poor receiver for when the midfield or even the CBs had the ball.
That doesn’t excuse the performances and the dynamic of having Jones and Giggs in a two-man central midfield. Very uncomfortable seeing Giggs in a two-man central midfield, far too cavalier. Goes wondering too much and leaving his midfield partner isolated, as seen against Basel too. Only so many times the likes of Welbeck/Rooney can drop deep effectively, to make up for his cavalier adventures forward. Jones has got a lot of work to do in a United central midfield, when it comes to bringing the ball out. Looks out of his depth against better sides at the moment.
Again, this doesn’t excuse the poor movement of the receivers such as Hernandez, like Rooney has a suspect touch, Park and Young as well as Rooney. Park has got to adapt faster if he wants to be useful in the present tactics as we don’t have the same type of need of him as we had in the past.
Last night was the kind of game where we needed to go the three-man central midfield of two/three seasons ago and play counter attacking. But seems like Fergie is determined to stay with this 4-4-2/1-1 change, regardless of we come up against. The likes of Jones and Giggs need a 3-man central midfield shape, if they are to play in central midfield. Even than, I would play a 3-man central midfield in Europe, regardless of who it is in central midfield. Scholes, Jones and Giggs aren’t good enough in a two-man central midfield. Anderson has yet to convince, let alone a 2-man central midfield. It is bad as to how incompatible our players can be in a two-man central midfield.
We simply do not have the central midfield options to play 4-4-2 against teams who press us.
Javi Martinez, please, pretty please Fergie.
Feel sorry for our ever-changing defence, when the midfield and forwards play like they did and have done throughout the season, in terms of defending. Not quite Arsenal levels, in terms of bad defending from midfield and forwards but still light years away from our good defending as a team a few seasons ago.
Another summer without a central midfield signing, surely not……?
Actually, defense was a big joke, nobody lead final defense line so United cannot utilize off side line very well, the first and second goal come from disorganization. No senior defender lead the defense, Third goal is big comical value, Both CB get miscue simple long ball.
John and Giggs are not DM who get the ball out from defense, John especially has no clue about passing, He didn’t move enough to made himself available for pass or try to shake off his own marker so he is no entity for United team. Don’t go to attack space or Don’t cover for surging run of United CB.
Evans and Smalling force to run forward because no DM was there so they carry the ball but Giggs and John don’t cover defense or support the attack. Simply United outnumbered because the line up SAF send out without proper DM who can shield the defense or get the ball out from defenders. Both Roonet and Chica had a bad game too.
I disagree. Llorente was Jones’ responsibility for the first goal, as the big man dropped off and was being marked by Jones and Evans at the time. Than Llorente offloaded the ball wide, which meant Evans followed where the ball was going whilst Jones did nothing, absolutely nothing in relation to Llorente when that cross came in. Llorente was free. Evans and Smalling were marking two other players when the cross was coming in, those two players were heading towards the front post area, whilst Llorente went in towards the back post area. Bilbao had SIX players in the box during the first goal. Smalling and Evans can’t mark everyone. Jones at fault for me and to a lesser extent, Rafael, who should be aware of the back post area, especially when the centre backs get drawn towards near post.
The third goal, the whole team was disorganised because of the way it occured. Carrick said in post-match interview that the referee said that they would be giving the ball back as part of ’sporting play’, but they went for goal. It was a stupid goal to concede from the defence but the way it came about, was odd to say the least.
The second goal? Not much could have been done about that, in relation to the centre backs. Evans had to step up and close down Herrara as he got past our central midfield as they (our midfield) got out-smarted and out-numbered. De Marcos made the run from Evra’s wing, Evra saw this and decides to push up alongside Evans to make a offside line. The replays show that the goal was offside. The second goal was disorganisation….from the central midfield, not the centre backs. Number of times our central midfield were getting outnumbered as Bilbao always had a spare man to out-smart them. Rooney was doing a poor job in terms of dropping deep to help them. This meant Evans or Smalling had to push up to close, which meant there was space behind them. Hence why Evans was seen shouting Rooney on more than one occasion, in what seem to me an attempt to get Rooney to close down/drop deep better. Park and Rooney were poor defensively, which had a knock-on effect on our central midfield and our defence.
We need our first and second line of defence back, which is the forward/s and the midfield, as our defence is having to do too much.
I don’t think so, Evera look for offside trap for the first two goals and there is lack of communication between defenders. Of course all this talk is eventually meaningless if we assume CM can do better job etc. I mean defense is really shaky at times. It is not like the first time United conceded multiple goals in Euro games. I don’t blame defenders actually I pretty much expect few goals go in. Problem is that United couldn’t field enough senior defenders and it cost team dearly.
SAF clearly didn’t field best possible team and get beaten, I think away game will be no different. Team was in big mess defenders and wing backs push forward while widemen and AM (Giggs) are busy to defend. I don’t mind team get beat actually but I do want to see some sort of organzied team effort.
I disagree. For me, its the midfield that is the problem when it comes to defending at the moment, as well as the instability in defence. Two-man central midfield in Europe, especially when it includes the cavalier Giggs, is asking for trouble. Against sides like Bilbao who know how to set up the triangle passing can out-manoeuvre a two-man central midfield relatively easy. Throughout this season, the midfield let the opposition at the defence too quickly. We have had too many changes in defence throughout the season, although we chose to put Ferdinand on the bench against Bilbao. I thought Evans was pretty good against Bilbao, when taking into the account the mess around him. Only so much you can do, when there are holes in midfield. Getting fed up of seeing Giggs in a two-man central midfield, far too risky. Its no surprise that Scholes has added more calm and balance in the middle, since returning but even than, he tires out and suffers when the receivers are getting pressed.
Athletic – amazing pressure.
In defense, you can see why Martinez plays there, he always moves out of defense anyway and does his work higher up the pitch. It worked a treat tonight, as he just followed Hernandez everywhere and didnt let him receive the ball in space. It also let him see him the ball a lot more, and he helped Athletic recycle the ball easily, with his long passes a treat. I really like this player and hope he will make it at a big club (probably see him going to real madrid at one point to take over from Alonso). San Jose then covered for him, though he got caught out a bit and looks a level below his team mates.
The wingbacks were fantastic with their positive attitude, getting forward throughout the game to provide overlaps and stretch the defense. This also meant they pushed the wingers back into defensive positions and were excellent as getting first time tackles in. Iraola looked the better on the ball and his delivery into the box was always dangerous.
In midfield, De Marcos and Herrera pressed relentlessly and found it easy to get the ball off Jones and Giggs, who were both poor under pressure. They also found a lot of space in between the midfield and defense and Herrera in particular was great at providing those decisive balls. Iturraspe anchored the midfield and allowed Athletic that extra man in midfield to re-start attacks, a vital job for this team (though he got help from Martinez stepping up).
in attack, the pressure from the front three was like watching Barca’s forwards in action, and it meant United didnt have an obvious outball with Hernandez up front not really suitable for long balls. With the width from the wingbacks, the wingers were allowed to move inside and got into great attacking positions between the fullbacks and Centre backs of United. Munian in particular was great and finding this gap and his goal at the end was deserved. Llorente lead the line excellently as well, not only winning everything in the air, but also dropping deep and holding the ball up to allow players to run past him. United looked really vulnerable when Llorente would drop deep to get the ball, hold up the ball and then play in the wingers making central runs.
Overall, a masterclass from Athletic in how to play an attacking game. If there was any weaknesses it was lack of quality from the LWB and San Jose as the covering defender. Otherwise they looked entertaining and fluent, though they will need to put away their chances more to progress in this competition.
It’s interesting to know that a similar team had a same idea of getting a coach with a completely new approach to football than what the club used to play in the past seasons: Chelsea. AVB has a similar approach to Bielsa when it comes to football, lots of pressing and lots of attacking in the opponent’s half; one didn’t do well and tried to revert to more accustom tactics for their players while the other is doing great and has been mixing his philosophy with the clubs game identity.
Bielsa and AVB maybe similar in approaches, but one coach is in his absolute prime, his confidence and belief in what he does, what he stands for is off the charts.
It’s either Bielsa’s way or the highway. They don’t call him El Loco for nothing.
That alone eliminates Bielsa from being effective in 99% of the clubs out there and to boot 3/4 of the players in the world wouldn’t or couldn’t handle playing for him.
Sad really.
Bielsa´s brand of football is unique. Bilbao played more of a 2-3-5ish formation than a 4-1-4-1 in some ways. A total revolutionary way of playing against Man U in Old Trafford. The man marking system that Bielsa is deploying lately seems so weird nowadays but showed it´s effectiveness too.
One aspect people often overlook about Bielsa is he’s a world traveler, he’s coached at all levels and in Mexico, Argentina, Chile, Spain, etc… At each stop he picks up new stuff, adds new wrinkles. A true coach.
IMHO under Bielsa, Argentina played spectacular football, better than current Spain at times even, they were an absolute machine. They did seem to peak in between the World Cups but Bielsa’s hands are all over the Argentina Youth Championships, Olympics, etc… You could even argue he transformed Argentina’s system to where they were so far ahead of the curve for such a long time, he built a huge lead…now others have caught up and surpassed them.
Watching Athletic play is almost exactly like watching one of his Argentinean teams, it was deja vu. They pressed hard, could beat you on the ground, in the air, the back line was ferocious. They weren’t necessarily there to be nice. Total package.
As long as he doesn’t wear out his welcome and they let him work, he’ll turn them into a bona fide powerhouse.
Insane, Rooney made the first goal thanks to a Hernandez rebound. Yes he was handled by the physicality of San Jose and Martinez, but if you had put Welbeck there it would of been worse. He isn’t as fast and his touch on the ball is inferior. Welbeck would of given Bilbao an even easier time.
Totally agree.
Consider this. Imagine Javier Hernandez swapping with Llorente. You’d get similar results. But imagine Chicharito under Bielsa’s machine. He’d net 30 goals a season. Easy.
United just isn’t a well-oiled machine. There’s question marks all over the pitch, in fact striker is really their best position.
Welbeck has a better touch than Rooney. Rooney’s touch is very suspect at times but he has a good tempo and has good awareness of our wing play in relation to linking up play, which makes him very effective for our game.
Agreed.
I thought Hernandez looked sharp on Thursday. He got into a couple of good scoring positions, drew a couple of fouls and it seemed as if his pace could (potentially) cause Bilbao a few problems. I don’t think Welbeck would have necessarily done a better job.
United were very poor, this is clearly a seriously bad stylistic matchup for them. However it is one they’re (most likely) going to have to figure out if they intend to seriously compete in Europe in the next few years, which given Sir Alex’s advancing age they must plan to do. While they have young players working their way into the squad in goal, at the back and up front, they have almost nothing in the midfield. Cleverley and Anderson can’t stay fit, Jones can be a fine midfielder in certain games, but he’s not neat enough on the ball to play effectively against high pressure and everyone else is older.
Seems to me that United will need to buy at least 1 midfielder to compete against this style along with making tactical adjustments. Two might be better if they intend to play 3 midfielders in some European games (which they should).
I am taking the Internet seriously now. I am retired and can dive into it.
I can see that there is a rich diversity in the blogs I am
reading and I am trying to leave some comment whereever I visit.
You have made your blog more interesting than most that I read.
Thanks for that. I am the proud owner of
my own website and blog and i get ideas from blogs such as yours.
Thank-you. In the text boxes I have entered my email address and my
website URL. I think it is ok that I incuded them since there seems to be a place to
do that. Hope so anyway. TheVeryBest2You 13 8
Great analysis! Thank you! Bilbao find the right tactic against Man United. I was a bit disapponited of Manchester…
Bilbao have been playing very well of late, but I’m surprised they were able to take out Man U at Old Trafford. It was a bad night to be a soccer fan in Manchester. Both teams lost matches to teams they should have beaten.
Rough year for English soccer on the European stage.
Why should Man United have beaten Athletic Bilbao? Seriously, why? Take away reputation and history, and look at the teams right now, and Bilbao is arguably a superior team. A team with higher quality. No, not just more determined. No, Man Utd didn’t just have an off day or didn’t put the effort into the Europa League. Both teams tried their best, and I believe the superior team won.
Never underestimate your opponent.
Hi! I’ve been following your site for some time now and finally got the courage to go ahead and give you a shout out from Atascocita Tx! Just wanted to say keep up the fantastic job!
Outstanding quest there. What happened after? Good luck!
I wouldn’t get too carried away with the hair-splitting analysis – it is the Europa League, and judging by the line-up, Ferguson probably doesn’t give a monkeys.
One comment though – I think Ferguson has an interesting problem with Jones – he looks a bit cumbersome, his positioning is a bit random and he needs to improve in possession. I suppose this is obvious, and Jones, at 20 years old, is a baby in football terms. But when I hear some football “experts” who think Jones should be playing centre-half for England, and is the future England captain …. haha. Maybe they should get excited only when Jones has a fixed position in the Man Utd side first. And Jones would probably agree too.
I think he would be a good defensive midfielder in the short term, and when he grows up, move him to the back.
No way, I really don’t like criticize young player but I must say this, John had big responsibility of knocking out of many important cup games including CL. He owe club a lot. Yeah He will make more mistakes for sure. He should be play as a wing back for while , He need to learn basic concept of positioning before he can play CM.
Hey, I like your site, I write original blog
content for ebay and my blog original content is king as well sell news stories.
I was surfing the web and found your site.
Looks good. Thanks!
Another high pressing game and United were hammered from all sides of the pitch.. Looks like Fergusen just leaves these games to chance without any particular tactical change or a plan to counter it.. Tells more about the English football approach actually.. doesn’t hurt them much in the EPL but when other European teams meet them, they are found wanting.. Last year they escaped with easy draw in the CL and the only real good team they met in the knockout is Barca in the final.. otherwise, they would have been exposed last year itself.. same applies to Chelsea, Man city also.. no tactical adaptation to Europe and they think that they can get away with playing like in the EPL.. and all were exposed by different teams like Napoli, Bayern etc. Only Arsenal seems to be coping OK in Europe and a stupid game in Milan destroyed their hopes too..
Regarding the general discussion of tactics, the high pressing game is slowly becoming the natural choice for teams that surprise many conventional teams.. No wonder Barcelona and recently Dortmund are very successful. While their attacking systems vary with one following a slow build up possession football and the other following fast attacking play, both intent on pressing all over the pitch and win the ball in dangerous positions.. Dortmund and Bilbao are even more interesting because they are doing it without superstars and with coaches who are innovative and get the best out of the players..
One can only get a solution to tackle their tactics when they meet each other I think.. like the Bilbao V Barca game but that had a bad pitch.. we will get a better picture in the game in Nou camp.. To a lesser extent, the Dortmund Vs Arsenal game was also an example when Arsenal were crippled but Dortmund were met with injuries and couldnt play to their potential.. its a shame that they started the season poorly instead of the current form..
Dortmund suffered because their Xavi left to Madrid to sit on the bench. Had Sahin not jumped ship, I don’t think they would’ve started so slowly. As the season progressed Klopp began to deploy more conservative midifields and began to cope with the loss of individual quality.
Dortmund and Bayern also played each other in a very intensive pressing game earlier this season, and it ended in a fairly lucky goal for Goetze, but it really could have gone either way. The main difference was that Dortmund were narrow and direct whilst Bayern were a little more patient and significantly wider.
What happens to United? Evans bring shame