Nationalities of managers in European leagues
England are without a manager, and the FA are known to favour an English candidate for the job.
Harry Redknapp is the overwhelming favourite, but the problem with favouring an English candidate is that there are so few English managers working in the Premier League. How does this situation compare to other major footballing countries in Europe?
The England graph may soon change to 16-4 – here, Mick McCarthy was included, but his replacement at Wolves will be announced soon. McCarthy was considered an Irishman (the country he represented at international level) rather than English, as ‘footballing nationality’ was used throughout.
That will shift the balance slightly, but 15% from 20% is a minor difference compared to 70% or above everywhere else.
Ten other Premier League managers are British but not English (two Welshman, two Northern Irish, six Scots) and Owen Coyle could be added to that figure if he was considered Scottish (his place of birth) rather than Irish (who he played for at international level).
The immediate task for the FA is to appoint a new manager, but in the long-term they must investigate why they have so few English options for the job.
Just to be pedantic – since Swansea are now in the English (and Welsh) Premier League, surely the two Welsh managers should have been included in the green…
The point is you don’t want a welshman managing the England team but it’s understandable that we have plenty of British/Irish as opposed to English managers due to the premier league being miles ahead of the other British/Irish leagues in terms of quality and finance.
No – again, the point is in relation to the English FA wanting an English manager, although it’s a slightly odd situation, granted
Why for fog’s sake is it impossible to have an all-Great-Britain FA and national team. Great Britain is the political institution, not England. Even in Belgium there is a Belgian team, and not a Flamian and a Wallonian one.
as soon as that will happen, ZM will talk about it (i assume).
but if we look to Belgium, why don’t copy the league system.
and this countriy had problems to form a government for a very long time, because Flamians an Wallonians are very united. i think, Belgium just tried a new form of government without politicians, wasn’t that bad.
http://www.studs-up.com/2008/08/children-have-wild-imaginations/?page=34
The answer to your question
That does not answer my question. I am not sure which point this cartoon/you are trying to make. Other than the average (English?) fan supposedly thinks ageing players would make a good NT. Which is probably an additional problem.
Diverinho, basically the issue goes beyond football, most people in England, Scotland (where i’m from), Wales and Northern Ireland are happy to be part of Britain and enjoy the benefits of being in a union, but most also take a particular pride in being English, Scottish etc and to have a football team representing the region is an important way of expressing that identity
Diverinho, the point of the cartoon is that an all-GB team would basically be an all-English team, which is why the other three countries aren’t fond of the idea.
Ok, maybe the three (four, when you also count NI – which I personally simply would hand back to the Republic) at some day will prefer forming a unified team. Sure, England is the largest ’state’ of them, so it would statistically contribute more players, but that is the same thing for any ‘province’ in each other country in say Europe. Btw, isn’t the Olympics a Sub23 competitions? I’d say players like Ramsey, Fletcher, Bale, … would INDEED impreove an otherwise only-English team. The thing is, in a tournament, it is not about the first 11 players only, it is about a 23 player squad. Can’t see how a larger pool of players would hurt.
Being curious: Of the 20 current PL managers (of which 3 are English), how many have been educated by the English FA? As that would be more of a measure how successful the English FA coaching education is.
Since you recently mentioned Lambert of Norwhich (is he English or Scottish?) who got his licence from the German FA.
Good idea to raise this topic, ZM! Being German myself, I felt sorry for the English (British?) and their sub-expectation performances internationally in the recent ~10 years. And I always felt there must be something ‘wrong’ with English coaching education when Sven Göran was their coach for so long… Hope they figure out how to re-shape themselves.
OMG.
It’s probably a combination of many factors.
First of all, English is a world language. There’s less of a barrier for foreign managers to come into the premier league because most speak at least a bit of english.
But mostly I think it’s about what englishmen think a manager should be/do. Most english managers in the premier league don’t want anything to do with tactics or field training. This doesn’t leave a lot of room for a manager to excel at what he does. So once the english manager can’t motivate his team anymore, he’s dead weight. I’d say alan pardew and redknapp are the exceptions rather than the rule.
But another thing is that people seem obsessed with “premiership pedigree”. The idea that a manager is better just on the basis of having managed a premier league team before, even if they got their team relegated. One day the manager will be rightfully sacked (although it’s always a tragedy according to journalists, and it was always harsh). The next day they’re in the running for a new EPL team. But maybe this wouldn’t bring more english managers.
“First of all, English is a world language.”
True, but there are not 8 managers from the Netherlands or Austria in the German League. Even though Dutch Managers were / are very popular in Germany. Years ago foreign managers played a bigger role in Germany (an foreign players, too). But the clubs realised that it’s not the brightest idea to sign someone because he’s a foreigner (and maybe cheap) and because an other manager from the same country was successful.
As a result (of Euro2000 and 2002), Germany concentrated on developing / educating players and managers.
That foreigners learn English at school is only a small part of the story. (Don’t know if Scots or Welshman have to learn English again when comming to the EPL.) The problem must be the education of the English managers, or that clubs don’t trust them.
Other question, how many English managers work in the other big European leagues? (same question with Spanish, German etc. managers.)
The EPL is importing managers, but which FAs / countries are exporting them?
I don’t know if I agree with the hypothesis that it has any thing to do with English’s status as the “world language”, but it’s not disproved by your reference to Dutch/Austrian managers in Germany. i.e. sure, there are non-German managers who speak German, but no where near as many as the number of non-English managers who speak English. So you wouldn’t expect as many non-German managers in Germany as you wouldnon-English managers in England.
That said, it might be a factor, but I don’t think it’s a major one.
indeed, a factor. not a major one, not the only one, but a factor.
of course more people speak English than German. But a lot Dutch learn German when they are young, i think most Swiss, too (or as native langieage). Austrians speak German anyway. So, keeping in mind that the KNVB is maybe the most successful FA in relation to the size of the country, it is a surprise that Dutch managers have not taken over the Bundesliga already.
You say ‘is’ when you mean ‘was’. Dutch club football came to an end in 1996, as the first Bosman transfers started to leave the country, and the traditional Dutch football-business model of ‘training young players, making them shine on the international stage and then selling them in their prime for a good profit’ turned into ‘training young players, maybe qualifying for the second round in the Europa league and watching the talents leave for peanuts or nothing at all before they turn 20′.
Dutch managers have been stuck in the past for years now – some never made it past 1974, and many of the rest still like to think it’s still 1995. There’s a good reason why the Bundesliga isn’t interested in them any more.
depending on the size of the country, the performance of the national team and the production rate of players are very good. It’s not all about the league (Eredivisie ist still a great league).
But it’s true, that Bosman changed a lot. But to be honest, Dutch talents were always leaving the country, now they leave just a few years earlier. The Bosman decision may pushed that development, but i don’t think it was the starting point.
@hwk:
The talents leaving a few years earlier makes all the difference. Training youth talents as a business model is no longer able to keep up financially with the vastly greater TV and sponsoring income of clubs in the bigger leagues. In fact, it’s no longer able to keep up with the increased player wages – most Dutch clubs are on the brink of bankrupcy. Dutch clubs have been conspicuously absent from latter stages of the European competitions, which they frequently used to win in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s.
The continued good performance of the national team is hard to explain. Maybe the extreme (bordering on hysterical) popularity of international football in and the national team in particular in Dutch culture helps to prop it up?
By the way, the size of the country isn’t all that small, considering population size and the popularity of football rather than area. England only has about twice as many people playing (amateur + professional) football. Size is no reason for Dutch league to rank so much lower than the Portuguese these days…
@boo
but it seems to bee good enough to produce good players and good managers. In contrast to the Premier League?!
Usually, the Elftal performs better than England (as long as they don’t start fighting within the team, but that can be said about teams from other countries as well).
Maybe Dutch clubs don’t make that much money anymore, because players leave earlier (an advantage for the players), but in my opinion this system needs less money than the clubs and leagues in other countries. In the end it depends on what you do with the money. if the clubs use it smart or spend too much.
Well the latter part of your question is answered I would guess by ownership. Premiership has the highest number of foreign owners I’d imagine, and most of those foreign owners are much less likely to concentrate their attentions on having an english manager. To solve this problem, the FA should probably start adopting Spain’s approach towards foreign ownership or create some new english billionaires who want to own a football club.
This post misleads in that sense and in the sense that’s been mentioned before of language differences. Btw, Dutch and German are very similar so no real correlation there.
“This post misleads in that sense and in the sense that’s been mentioned before of language differences. Btw, Dutch and German are very similar so no real correlation there.”
But this point only explains that Dutch managers are welcome in Germany, but still there is no invasion of Dutch managers. Of course the Dutch league is competitive and a good place to start for a young manager (i think Portugal, too) and after a few successful seasons it’s not a big step to go to Germany.
Also, I assume that most Dutch managers also speak good English. It’s not all about the language.
Maybe the foreign owners and the fact that in EPL a lot of money is available are a more important factor. You buy the best managers of the world because you compete in the best league of the world.
The managers at Man United and Arsenal are statistical outliers, because of the long time at the club. Chelsea and Man City are no real “English” clubs at this moment, it’s more about the money and what you can buy with it. T’ham and Liverpool have one English manager and one club ledgend. That are the “top 6″ of the last years.
What’re the reasons at the midtable clubs to “avoid” English managers? I don’t know, but I think we should look at every single club and make our conclusion thereafter.
In Germany there is also a pool of (don’t know, maybe) 25 managers for 18 Bundesliga clubs. Sometimes Bayern signs someone like van Gaal or Trapattoni (in the 90s). Sometimes one of the old managers drops out of this group (and work for TV or in lower leagues) and a club signs someone new. A foreign manager or a German, who had worked abroad. Or they search for a new manager at the youth academy. Of course speaking German is important when you work in Gemany, not many on the pitch, but within the club, the city and the fans.
Sometimes it works, sometimes not. Some foreign managers leave after a short time, some young guns had to leave, too. In general, clubs are criticised for sacking a young manager early (or managers too often). Most German clubs have directors of sport, some managers are more like coaches / trainers.
Germany and England are different situations. Clubs in Germany started to give younger managers a chance over the last years. They realised, that some managers, working in the league for years and fighting relegation with different clubs, were no choice for reaching long time success and that opened the marked. Also, teams like Mainz and Hoffenheim had their own way of doing things and are not clubs with two decades of tradition in the highest league. Teams like that, teams that don’t have much to lose (like St. Pauli or Augsburg), often have young managers who would go down a league and build a new team if necessary.
Michael Cox subtly begins his own campaign to manage England in 2012….
And thus the myth of free market competition is blown
I really disagree with Kuiper on this topic.
English Rugby has many of the same problems as English football.
Because they have so much money, they import loads of playing talent and managers
For a talent producing country like NZ, this means we have our own league, plus the financial benefits of the UK.
So at the last world cup, suddenly kiwis are coaching 3 out of the 4 finalists.
The question that has to be asked is what can’t england produce any talent at a competitive price?
Maybe the numbers wouldn’t be so bad if clubs would hire Englishmen who weren’t white.
Like who?
Paul “Shoot” Ince.
I don’t think any English fans would turn their noses up to a British or Irish England manager – i assume many think Martin O Neill is English, and would love him to take the job.
Can you imagine Ferguson taking the England job?! English and British are very different things in my eyes and it does matter.
Martin O’Neill is Northern Irish. British yes, English no.
Listening to English commentators, one can understand that the dearth of English Managerial talent comes from the way the culture appreciates the sport. If an audience focuses heart, determination, and physicality, this focus shapes the attentions of managerial talent on these qualities. Hardly the sort of environment to encourage the sort of ideological evolution that creates great managers. The best British Managers tend to be best at man management. A very important aspect of the job, but it is only one aspect of a manager’s task.
Martin O’Neill is Northern Irish. British no, English no.
Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, not Britain.
note ‘many think’ – i’m well aware Martin O Neill is Northern Irish, yet would be very content if he were to take the role
Either way, he’s not British.
Isn’t “British” commonly used to refer to “citizen of the United Kingdom”? I mean, what else are they called? United Kingdomese?
hahaha, ok..
I’d agree with ‘anonymous’ – a major factor here is how fans of Premier League teams are extremely reluctant to accept new managers who have no previous Premier League experience – Steve Kean is the best of many examples of this. Without this experience, new managers need to have ‘earned’ the right to be in the Premier League – ie by getting a team promoted from the Championship. This problem is compounded by the fact that any relegation or sacking from the Premier League can permanently ruin a manager’s career in terms of that level of competition: see Aidy Boothroyd, Paul Jewell, Phil Brown, Steve Coppell, etc.
On top of this, there is a culture among English football fans (probably stronger than in any of the countries mentioned above) of accepting the appointments of former players, regardless of whether they show any sign of knowing the first thing about management – the same goes for punditry.
Just look at the example of Alan Shearer and Chris Hughton (who, while a former player, was less well known as such): Shearer was known as an old fashioned striker whose strengths lied in his technique and physicality rather than any tactical awareness; once retired, he lands a plush job on the MOTD sofa, and proceeds to consistently demonstrate his lack of insight; he is then appointed as in the Newcastle hot seat and is portrayed as their saviour; he fails to stave off relegation. Chris Hughton is reappointed once more, and within a year and half re-establishes Newcastle as a Premier League force; Hughton is then shockingly sacked in December 2010. Where are they both now? Shearer is still trotting out the same old garbage on MOTD, ready to take any opportunity to manage a Premier League team again; Hughton is once again stuck in the Championship, needing to ‘earn’ his Premier League pedigree.
Fair points. I hate how we have the same old circle of managers who get sacked and then take up another job at a championship or lower prem club until they’ve been sacked often enough that no-one wants them anymore. People are instantly considered for the job if they have managed in the prem before or were very good players. Every now and again, someone will come through and get a team promoted and enter the circle. Why not give it to a young manager or a coach within the club who demonstrate good coaching skills over a period of time? I love Shearer but if he wants a top job he should have to go somewhere and learn his trade.
The reason fans don’t accept Kean is that the club is being asset stripped.
Great point on Hughton, has been unfairly disregarded by the premier league, and has now transformed a club stripped of its best players into promotion chasers. If i was wolves I would definitely go after him….
What this data really says is there’s less opportunities for English managers due to the way the English leagues are actually British (i.e. Scotish/Welsh/Irish players/managers will want to be in the Premier League above the top tier in their own nation, the EPL already has a Welsh side in it etc.).
The funny thing is, the Premier League has proportionally fewer Foreign managers compared to Spain (if you don’t consider British managers as foreign), which isn’t really highlighted in the article…. and something I’m quite surprised at as many people blame our poor national form on Foreign influence in the league, but that doesn’t seem to be doing Spain any harm though!
I was thinking along similar lines. England is pretty much unique in football, in that it is the only country surrounded by three other “countries” (four if you include Eire) that aren’t really foreign countries in most ways.
Both for reasons of language, culture and public perception, there is nowhere near the same amount of stigma for an English club to hire a Scot/Welshman/Irishman as there is for (for example) a Spanish club to hire a Frenchman, or a German club to hire a Dutchman, etc etc.
So I think really the more relevant stat would be to compare British (and perhaps Eire too, especially if they’re “plastic paddies” in the mold of Mick McCarthy)vs Non-British managers. My guess is that the domestic:foreign ratio would still be far worse than in Spain/Germany/France/Italy etc, but not quite as bad.
As to “what can be done about it”, in terms of an FA overhaul, I really don’t know. It’s silly really that premier league managers won’t give Championship-level managers more consideration, since it’s actually a really competitive league. I’d have more respect for someone who forges respectable teams in the Championship (even those that don’t get promoted) rather than a perpetual relegation candidate like Steve Bruce.
“or a German club to hire a Dutchman”
There is no stigma.
In Germany the only thing that matters is success. Germans forgive the fact that you are not a German when you have success.
look at Stevens, Favre, van Gaal (before Bayern started not to win anymore), etc.
Sorry, “stigma” was probably a bad choice of word on my part.
I just meant that this comparison is distorted slightly by the fact that Scottish/N.Irish/Welsh (and evem Eire tp a certain extent)are not really “foreign” in any sense of the word. Although I’m sure you’re right that denmark and Holland are both closely intertwined with Germany, it’s not to the same extent as Scotland & England (who are literally part of the same country).
I should add though, that even if we accept that Scottish is not really, it still raises the question: why does Scotland seem to produce a disproportionate number of good managers compared to England. And it seems to go back to before the Premier League era.
well, I think it depends a little where you are in Gemany. A Dutch manager in Bavaria (like van Gaal) was a littel strange. There are some Danish players an managers, but not that much (Morten Olsen comes to my mind). Managers from Austria or Switzerland are also common. But now there is this new generation of German managers (and new-school managers) after the World Cup winning team of 1990 produced nearly no great manager.
There isnt really a stigma attached to a german club hiring a dutch coach especially since they usually speak German. It would be similar with someone from Denmark or parts of France let alone someone from Austria or Switzerland.
The reason there are so few english managers in the Premiership isn’t because its so accessible for a certain gourp of ‘foreigners’ but simply because there is a lack of good english managers.
“… there is a lack of good english managers.”
maybe the reason why England has a problem on international level.
Good managers are very important for the development of good players. just look at the Netherlands.
@ZM
Is there any thing like a “ranking” the best places (FAs) to learn coaching?
I would think about Scotish FA and Dutch FA bringing out a lot of good managers.
Not as far as I know!
Maybe the reason is because English football players are inherently stupid. Maybe that’s why they find it so hard to win anything. Maybe the FA would be better of giving up rather than trying to polish turds. maybe Stuart Pearce and Gareth Southgate should take over and show the FA just how pointless it all is.
“(four if you include Eire)”
You don’t. Nor should you even consider including it.
Why not include Italy and say we already had one?
Just a question but why are there no black managers of top tier teams? Are there no viable candidates?
That’s a whole can of worms.
I think the innocent part of the explanation is that black players only started to come into the English game in the 80s. So there are fewer ex-players of “managerial age” than white players (e.g. when the older managers like Fergie, Redknapp, etc were in their playing days, there were practically zero black players, hence there were no black people in their peer group who could progress into a managerial role).
However, this explanation wears thin as time progresses. Many of the black players of the 80s/90s are more than “old enough” now to be considered for managerial roles. So it raises the question why clubs will consider young white managers but apparently not young black managers.
Part of the reason is also probably due to the fact that relatively few players continue into management any way, so the sample size of the entire manager population (and the subset of black managers, or would-be black managers) is perhaps too small to draw any conclusion about suggestions of racial prejudice.
The more disturbing reasons are probably true to some extent too – perhaps, for whatever reason, club owners are less willing to give a black manager a chance. This might also be influenced by the fact that during the early years of black men’s existence in professional football, they were stereoptypically seen more as athletes than tacticians. i.e. the first black players were generally expected to be fast wingers or big strong center forwards. So the earlier black players (who might now be in the age bracket at which we would expect to see managerial appointments) were more known for their physical than tactical prowess.
Of course, over time this attitude has changed somewhat, and we see black players in all positions. So hopefully in time this will filter through to managerial appointments too.
Paul Ince is one who makes a big deal about this issue. In some ways, he seems to have a point – as a player, he was as tactically aware as anyone. He didn’t build his playing career on strength, size or speed particularly. He’s also played under legendary managers, and played in Italy (a rarity for any Englishman). He also did a good job managing in the lower tiers.
So maybe he has a point that premier league club owners are prejudiced in not considering him.
But at the same time, he’s well known for having a bit of an attitude (“the guvnor” and all that), and maybe that just rubs people up the wrong way (owners and players alike). Maybe it’s too hasty to conclude that Paul Ince’s lack of success is evidence of racism, rather than simply evidence of Paul Ince being a slightly obnoxious egotist.
Paul Ince, given a chance but sacked. Another issue is the ego of the English Players. They have their media guys who will boost the players and make the mangers look suckers. Another issue is of derby managers who are un welcome to opposite clubs (Alex Mcleish managing Aston Villa). Lot of local factors come into question
I agree with Anonymous, it does seem like there are a lot of British managers that don’t want to get stuck into the nitty gritty jobs like foreign managers do. It would be nice to see Harry Redknapp leading the England team and I think having a British manager would give the players a sense of pride and motivation to play at their best.
all of the english coaches are floating around america over-emphasising their accent and wooing ignorant parents and players
this actually made me laugh because its so true
Shocking stat, dont really get why English coaches dont get much of a chance. Seems like foreign owners are more likely to pick from around the world, which means people with more experience in foreign leagues will have a better chances than an english coach in the championship. Would like to see more English coaches go Abroad, look at Maclaren, he won the dutch league when he moved abroad, more coaches should follow suit.
http://economicinterest.wordpress.com/2012/02/17/when-will-the-football-bubble-burst/ My blog, wrote about how the economic bubble Football is in could be bursting
You could also see this as a positive development, that the EPL attracts foreign coaches, rather than ‘importing’ them. After all, it still is the best league in Europe. Plus, there are more top level clubs in England (‘Big Four’ plus Man City, to an extent Tottenham) than in any other league. Just think about the clubs Mourinho or Guardiola would be willing to go to: you end up with at least five English clubs, but only 1-3 for any other league. And that’s only the tip of the iceberg, as many European medium-level managers would go to almost any English club, but only consider a few clubs in the other leagues.
I’m sure there are plenty of other factors, but I think that the quality of the teams and the league is at least part of the situation and something you should consider before condemning the English FA.
“You could also see this as a positive development, that the EPL attracts foreign coaches”
Certainly, and it brings new ideas. But countries should have an ideology of their own and coaches who bring new ideas themselves
The issue isn’t the high number of foreign (i.e. non-British) managers, it’s the trivial number of English ones. Consider that the population of England:Scotland is about 10:1, while the number of managers in the English Premier League is 3:6. Extraordinary.
“But countries should have an ideology of their own”
Why? This might be considered obvious but what’s the rationality behind this?
“it still is the best league in Europe”
How so?
England teams have won 2 of the last 10 Champions Leagues, compared to Spain’s 4 and Italy’s 3.
And it doesn’t look like this year their record will improve (an aggregate 1-7 vs Serie A teams so far in the knockout stage).
I cannot understand why all the people think EPL is the best league.
Maybe an answer to both this question, and the question of this article by ZM, is:
EPL is the richest league.
EPL is the best league because it has more than just a ‘Big Two.’ At least in my opinion. In the Spanish League the only ones you would ever see winning the league are Barca or Real. In the EPL, the title is a toss-up between Utd, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, even Spurs in the last couple of years. That, in my opinion, makes it a better league: more competitive.
English sminglish. You can’t count those other British managers as foreigners. For a start off most of them have played, lived and worked in England for a LONG time, and can for all intents and purposes, be categorised as English (for this situation anyway).
So, if you add those 10 to the four others we are in the ballpark as concerns stats for other countries. No other country has the same geography as Britain so I find your selectivity slightly ridiculous, and seemingly, only to have been invented to support your article.
I wish us Brits would quit thinking like we are always getting it wrong and deprecating everything we do. It could so happen that we are way ahead of other leagues, and that’s why managers want to come here, the challenge is like no other, the standard of the football is incredible, and the country as a whole is a great place to live and work.
Nice article, but ultimately a load of horse hockey.
But you’ve missed the point. The English FA want an English manager. This isn’t some kind of geo-political point, it’s merely stating that if other countries had the same approach to a new coach, they’d have considerably more options
I think the really important point is that Britain is the only one of these countries which is split into 4 different football associations. Now of course it should be the responsibility of the English FA to produce English coaches. The problem with this however is that there is a long standing culture of Scottish, Northern Irish and Welsh players and coaches coming to play or coach in England because the league is bigger and much more wealthy. The normal things, like different culture, language, footballing style, which stop players or coaches migrating don’t really exist.
The problem is this ridiculous archaism that is Britain having 4 different football associations. If Britain had one footballing association then the statistics for managers would be pretty much in line with the rest of the European average.
I mean if we’re just talking about managers who have been brought through by the English FA then whether or not they’re english has nothing to with it. For example Brendan Rodgers is a man whose spent his entire coaching life in England but is Northern Irish. Whereas Roy Hodgson has spent most of his managerial career abroad.
I don’t know about the other European Leagues but if you look at the number of managers in the Premier League who have spent 10 or more years at English Clubs (managing or coaching). There are Paul Lambert, Roy Hodgson, Alex McLeish, Andre Villas-Boas, Owen Coyle, Roberto Martinez, Mark Hughes and Roberto Mancini. Of those only Alex McLeish, Andre Villas-Boas, Paul Lambert and Roberto Mancini have spent less than 10 years in England if you take into account playing careers as well.
The problem the English FA have it they appoint foreign managers who don’t have any affinity to the English game such as Capello or Sven. Someone like David Moyes would be a perfectly appropriate manager for England despite being Scottish.
England is one of the “major footballing countries”? Won the World Cup once, on home soil, courtesy of a did-the-ball-cross-the-line decision by a national of a country with good reason to hate Germany. I’ll grant you, though, that it’s a major football-watching country.
I took into account FIFA’s World Rankings combined with UEFA’s League Rankings to come up with countries that were strong as a national team and string in league terms
Yeah, but the league is strong because of all the foreigners and “other British”.
Great article,
It’s funny that Redknapp can be reproached for having won so little silverware, but unless the big four consider hiring an English coach, an Englishman is unlikely to win the Prem or FA cup. I wrote a post about it on me tumblr.
On a side note, do you think that English footballs Luddism towards tactical sophistication has caused some kind of stunted growth among up and coming English coaches, and that is why they have been pushed out of the prem, or do you think they are equal to their foreign counter-parts but haven’t been able to find jobs for other reasons?
Also, looking forward to the War Room next week, better get my $ worth!
“It’s funny that Redknapp can be reproached for having won so little silverware, but unless the big four consider hiring an English coach, an Englishman is unlikely to win the Prem or FA cup.”
Bang on! It’s such a closed shop now, lack of silverware isn’t a great excuse
Thats why what Redknapp has achieved at Spurs is so admirable.
Since he was been shut out from the top teams oligopoly, he has forced his own way in with another team. He’s turned the phrase “if you cant beat them join them!’ to “if you cant join them, beat them!” and without the financial steroids City have relied upon.
How many of tottenham’s good players were brought by redknapp? he gets credit for their success but not all of it. There were rumors that spurs made a big bid for andy carroll before he moved to liverpool – that sounds more like a redknapp player.
I’d love to see the premier league be mainly composed of english players and managers, especially at the big clubs. The top teams wouldn’t make it out of the champions league group stages and drop to the europea league, which is more closer to their level. Good players like silva and van persie would leave for spain and italy and stop promoting the long ball league. English players managers need to be given a chance is what I hear, so give it to them, stop whining about foreigners and give your people a chance. Would be hilarious to see carroll replace suarez, walcott replace van persie, etc…
Good point. Obviously Wenger & ferguson have been at Arsenal and Man Utd for donkey’s years and the 2 big money clubs Man City & Chelsea don’t seem at all interested in English managers. Only Redknapp at spurs has been able to force his way in (eventually) although spurs are still a big club with lots of resources. Other English managers have had to try to bring success with clubs that don’t have big budgets where success is just finishing comfortable mid league. Guys like Curbishley who did a great job at Charlton and West Ham get overlooked (forced out so they could bring in guys like Zola and Grant cos that ended well…..).
Another problem is clubs giving mangerial jobs to ex-players (not so much in the prem perhaps) with little to no experience who usually fail. This policy helps block the progress of managers with successful experience in the lower leagues.
The thing where a mediocre-at-best manager of a struggling Premiership club gets sacked and then his name gets bandied about whenever there is an opening at a different struggling Premiership club that just sacked _their_ mediocre-at-best manager is hilarious. But it’s also understandable as a risk averse strategy. If you know you’re almost certain to finish near or in the relegation zone regardless of who you hire, better to hire a “proven Premiership manager” because then you can’t be blamed for finishing so low because you took a chance on an unknown.
What I don’t understand as an outsider (i.e., American) is why there are so many Scottish managers in the EPL.
Combining the two above points, what I may never understand is why a club with aspirations to compete for the European places would hire the mediocre-at-best defensive-minded manager (who happens to be Scottish) away from their biggest rivals, especially given that those rivals were relegated under his leadership in the previous campaign.
Yeah McLeish to villa is a difficult one to understand. Surely they could have done better than McLeish his Birmingham teams were so boring.
I think, Scottish is perhaps the wrong word, you could easily go with Glaswegian; Ferguson, Moyes, Coyle, Kean, Dalglish, McCleish are all Glaswegian and I’m pretty sure Lambert is as well. So that’s a city with a population of 650,000 producing fully a third of the top flight managers in England. In this sense, it actually become slightly more understandable, if you view the Old Firm (for whom pretty much all of that group played, managed, coached or were trainees)as a kind of La Maisa for British/Scottish football management/coaching.
In addition, many of these managers find it easier to get their first job than their English counterpars (Lambert, Coyle, McCleish & Ferguson all had their first gig with smaller Scottish teams) I suspect that there is something in that.
The question is, are this persons good players / managers because of the old firm, or have they played for one of the clubs, because they were good players?
I feel the huge pie charts are a tad unnecessary for the slightly obvious point, perhaps the English league chart should perhapshave foreign, English and British? Since when we think foreign, it usually means non-British and not non-English, or at least i do, though it is pedantic of me.
I do agree that few British managers would want to manage England (even if the FA wanted to hire non-English), similar to how, for example, Spanish or French basque managers would feel on the matter of managing those respective countries. It would have also been fascinating to know the number of them in the Spanish and French leagues.
to be honest the British managers are politically from the same country, but … the point of a lack of English managers is taken… I consider the ‘Championship’ the most competitive 2nd division in Europe, I wonder what the breakdown of managerial nationality is in that league? Mostly English i would bet; and regularly getting promoted and next season you’ll have Allardyce to add to the English gaffers. Also, it is objectively the best league in the world; when Serie A was on top in the 90s I reckon there was more foreign managers there. But Italy are very good at producing managers, they have a good coaching system, so maybe not. Scotland has a good caoching system (Mourinho and Villas Boas went to the UEFA centre in Largs at various points)
NEIL WARNOCK FOR ENGLAND!!! (Seriously!!)
Yeah, if you count British people as “non-foreign” the pie will look quite similar to Spain’s. That’s a big point.
But… ZM’s point still stands: if the English FA wants an ENGLISH manager (which is what I understand they want), their options are quite limited. I also can’t think of many English managers in any of the other top European leagues.
Finally, it’s true that English language may make it easier for foreign coaches to break in but… Spain, for example. They have their pick of managers from Spanish-speaking Latin America, which produces several good players/coaches.
Not only that, but it’s closeness culturally and linguistically with Portugal and even Italy makes for a good opportunity. And the Basque Country is practically half-French.
Thus, it’s not entirely surprising that the foreign managers are 3 Latin Americans, a Portuguese, and a Frenchman who coaches a Basque team.
I’m just saying some incidental factors like that even out.
“English FA wants an ENGLISH manager”
spot on. AND don’t forget that it is about the FA an not the country. You don’t have a British FA, there is an English and a Scotish FA, etc.
If someone doesn’t care about continental Europe, this person should compare the British FAs.
If you were to describe the English style of play to a foreigner what would it be?
One that doesn’t win.
…. or score penalties.
Personally, I think of route 1 football and sliding tackles.
To be honest, I don’t think that the identification of English football and the Premiership with rough tackling and long balls really describes the actual state of play. The issue isn’t so much the flaws or merits of the English style as that England doesn’t have a style.
I think it has a style – power and pace. Even when you look at an atypical team like Arsenal, at their best, they still built their game around power (Vieira / Campbell / Petit / Lauren / Parlour) and pace (Henry / Ljungberg / Overmars / Cole). On the other extreme, you have Stoke City, who obviously are a really powerful team, but they’re also very quick out wide (Pennant + Etherington).
So okay, you have teams who emphasize technical ability more than others, but in general, I’d consider that the style, just like how Serie A is known as a tactical league, but that doesn’t prevent teams like Roma and Napoli playing football with a different emphasis.
I don’t know. I mean, Thailand had English managers in the past and look at where it got us? Wait, bad example.
*runs off*
I actually think some of our previous English manager aren’t too bad. Peter Reid and Withe actually produce result with limited resource they have. The really bad example is Brian Robson who seems more concern with setting up youth team (not a bad thing, but not part of his job).
We have German and Brazilian manager in the past and they don’t produce miracle either so you can’t really blame it on the English manager. Regardless, I have some hope with the current manager we have (Winfried Schäfer).
Don’t usually comment, but just wanted to say, this debate in the comment section is one of the most interesting and enjoyable I’ve seen on this site. Kudos to everyone.
Also, great idea for an article. As someone said above, it could be considered as a positive (having mostly foreign managers does have at least some positives). Anyways, really enjoyed the debate!
How many English managers coach in the top European leagues outside the EPL? Perhaps England just doesn’t produce many good managers.
Not many. Can just think of McLaren (Twente->success, Wolfsburg->failure), and that old legend coaching in Portugal and Barcelona, whose assistant and translator Mourinho was.
What a information of un-ambiguity and preserveness of precious knowledge on the topic of unexpected feelings.
There are only 14 data points here. You used 7 pie charts to display them. I spent more time scrolling than reading numbers. Moreover, the printing of the number shows the uselessness of the pie graphic.
I guess the pies were used to have a more drastic visual impact. Alas the green-red contrast (good-bad?). Some people can read and weigh numbers better than others. Everybody can interpret a pie chart, where the proportions become immediately visible. I guess ZM simply wanted to in-your-face point out that stark contrast between EPL and other leagues.
Unfortunately, got to admit it.. this blog is a widely covered topic and not much unknown information gets to the reader – which is what we are all looking for – ZM has indeed raised the bar ..
The point about it being non-political and all about the English wish to have an English manager has been well canvassed. The shortage of supply seems straightforward to me – the EPL is an international league. But in the international market for managers, the English are relatively less educated, less in the way of “thinkers”, and not as tactically sophisticated as their non-English counterparts.
This appears to be a matter of culture. English football culture has been behind the leading football nations since before WW2. They invented the game but have been unable to learn from everyone else who has helped evolve it.
As for Rednapp, he obviously has many qualities that are contributing to Spurs’ success. I predict that if he becomes England manager he will fall flat on his face. Whatever his contribution to Spurs, it isn’t tactical nous. He may be able to motivate England (good luck with those insufferable egos!), but England will still look tactically and technically inferior once they come up against decent opposition.
Until the moneybags leave the premiership, this issue will remain (or indeed when the F.A ever decide to re haul the entire English league tier system)
Maybe AVB is right about the B team system, maybe B teams with a rule of having x amount of English or indeed British players up to certain age can enter. (haven’t really thought it through!!)
Any way enjoy the blog, avid but silent reader)
I do think the Fa cocked up by saying they’re seeking an “English” manager
There’s not many English managers because managers are often former players that were tactically clever, had the so called ‘football brain’. For some reason there’s never really been too many great playmakers coming from England.
If you look at England national team’s midfield, you’re gonna see that the player who’s closest to a playmaker is Jack Wilshere (if fit)!!! No offence to Wilshere but if you compare him to other top national teams’ playmakers (Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas, Silva, Sneijder, Van der Vaart, Pirlo, Schweinsteiger, Özil, Götze, Gourcuff, Nasri, Kaka, Diego, Ganso, Lucas Moura, Modric, etc, etc… !!!!) you’ll see that there’s a real hole in England’s creativity.
I’m not saying that only playmaking midfielders can be good managers but I think that the comparison points out something. EPL has always been more about pace, physics and strength more than about tactics and that kind of abilities so the player are not as tactically ‘intelligent’ as player in Spain, Italy, Germany, etc.. I think that this kind of set-up causes the lack of English quality managers.
I am confused. why do you need to check nationality of manager? The prime purpose of manager is achieving success. I do think that various backgrounds and different nationality of england league is very positive stuff.
The fact that England has not produced world class coaches in recent years should not come as a big surprise to anyone. Great football coaches, like great football players, come from great footballing traditions. No disrespect intended, but English football has stagnated in the last four decades or so. One reason for this may be that the talent that is produced in England almost never leaves England. How many English footballers/coaches do you see in other top flight European leagues? I can’t think of anyone other than Michael Owen when he was at RM. The only other player I know of was Jermaine Pennant who had a short spell at Zaragoza and who in my opinion came back as a much better player. I may be wrong but there might be this notion that somehow it’s unpatriotic for an English footballer to play in Germany or Italy. Also the fact that EPL teams are willing to pay more (both in terms of transfer fees & salaries) for English players than foreign players has not encouraged English footballers to move abroad. The last thing English football needs is more patriotism. Get the best coach regardless of nationality.
Owen Hargreaves. Won the 2001 CL with Bayern. Great player.
He was great, but if I’m not wrong, played as a kid in Germany. And he is half Canadian.
I always thought, he is smart on the pitch, he played for Bayern, for United and now plays for City, he played under great managers. He would become a great manager himself. But maybe he is not into coaching. With his history of injuries, I would have gone into coaching two years ago.
Played for Bayern from age 12, I think.
He only played for England because Canada weren’t good enough for him, kind of like “I don’t want to commit at this stage” Hoilett.
its 16 actually so Owen got most of his youth training in canada.
and unlike most of the BS ‘my grannie is from the old country’ where anyone is granted the right to change allegiances, Owen is the only of his siblings born in Canada, the others are born in UK as are the parents.
toilet on the other hand can only play for canada or Jamaica so his lack of commitment is more of a family thing where the Jamaicans FA is trying to get his old man whos is his agent to get him to play there.
a third world country with poor infrastructure versus one that has 40 million people and doesnt have a national league (and the MLS only demands 3 players out of 30 be canadian because US players are homegrown) or much in terms of foundation.
its really a sophies choice of mediocrity.
I disagree with this notion. Spain, the current world and European champions have how many players playing outside of Spain?
A few playing in England, sure. Pepe Reina (backup keeper), Fernando Torres (who may not even be called up). Cesc Fabregas played in England, too, though he is usually on the bench. Maybe their most important player with foreign experience is Xabi Alonso, who played for Liverpool.
So sure, some Spanish players played in the EPL but it doesn’t strike me as a huge part of that team’s success.
I am writing here now for everybody to know that the content of this blog is excellent! The posts are very informative and understandable! People, don?t pass by : )
ZM is probably the best site for football. but this time i think it is a bit late.
The Economist had a blogg post about the same problem. they highlight the fact that the most sucsessfull managers in PL at the moment are two scots (Daglish and Sir Alex),
http://www.economist.com/blogs/gametheory/2012/02/football-managers
???
A bit late?
Is there a race that ive missed?
Do all media stop wahtever theyre working on because someone wrote about it?
EVERYONE and his drunk grandmother is writing about THIS subject since Fabio told them to take the job and shove it. Is every article after the first one sayin that there arent enough english managers to qualify meaningless? (well, its the english press so the numbers should be high!)
Fabio left 10 days ago and this meme is going to run all the way through the Euros and beyond.
Im calling your scouser ass on this because somehow youve managed to put Kenny up there as best manager.
Totally blew the Suarez incident over and over again and the man has more money (and spent it) than every team except Citeh and Chelski. if he wasnt a legend, he’d be gone.
‘AC Milan’s Thiago Silva is Thuram, Cannavaro, Pique and Puyol all put together’ – Zlatan Ibrahimovic . ZM , will u do an article on Thiago Silva just like u did on Daniel Alves ?
An interesting study to complete those charts would be to correlate these data with national leagues of inferior levels. Doing it would allow to see if a pool of supposedly capable countrymen does exist and maybe give a hint on whether, in England, chosing a foreign manager is a deliberate choice or one done by lack of valid candidates.
I can only speak of France because this is the sole championship on which I have enough knowledge to do so, but for this country, in the Ligue 2 (being the league just below the Ligue 1, the top french league), almost all managers are frenchmen: 18 out of 20, the two other managers being german and italian (to be exhaustive, I should also add that one of the 18 aforementionned managers has double nationalities: french and armenian).
This situation provides teams with a large choice of coaches that have proven they can decently lead a squad.
On the question about being familiar with the league where they carry on their job, as far as I know in France, to the exception of the recently appointed Paris’ manager Carlos Ancelotti, the few foreign managers have played for many years in Ligue 1. It seems to me (but I might be wrong as I have partial knowledge of the PL) that it is far different in England as all non-english managers’ names that come to my mind have never played there.
So certainly, beyond having or not a pool of good countrymen manager, recruiting philosophy greatly differs between England and France.
Last point that might be of interest for this comparison between the two countries: the job of manager as intended in England (i.e. not only responsible for daily coaching or recruitment, but also being involved on a larger scale of the team management including financial and structural aspects) is pretty uncommon in France. Usually in Ligne 1, the guy is basically just a coach in charge of training and tactical decision and not much more, even if in the ten last years, to try to compete at European level (mainly the Champion’s League) with the bigger teams, a few managers have seen their field of responsibility increased (to tell you the truth, in France, we even speak of manager “à l’anglaise”). But this difference was already pointed in other comments.
Surely part of the issue is, that like the UK housing market, retail and banking industry the PL is a service economy. England hosts an excellent league in which the players, owners and managers are, for the most part, not English. The British economy is not about exporting goods or services, in theory, its about attracting overseas money into the country to purchase infrastructure (Harrods, Cadbury’s, Man U etc).
As the 19th and first half of the 20th century social fabric that bound teams to their local area is replaced by a globalised league and fanbase so the clubs within the league feel less need to recruit managers from England.
With only 30% of players being english, this isnt a surprise.
But I think the players % are bigger problems for the english game.
(see what happened to Arsenal now that they have 6 english players? its not a coincidence!!)
I think the problem is that the English league is the richest and most high-stakes league in the World. The difference between being in the Championship and being in the Premier League is astronomical – it’s no exaggeration to say that the Championship play-off final as the richest prize of any football game in the world.
You only need to look at ex-Premiershio clubs such as Bradford, the two Sheffields, Swindon, Leeds, Portsmouth, Southampton etc to see that dropping out of the Premier League can cause massive damage to a club.
It’s no wonder, then, that Premier League clubs are so rick-averse, not wanting to take a chance on a good Championship boss for fear of failure. It’s a closed shop.
I completely agree. How else does a manager like Paul Hart ever get close to the helm of a Premier League team? Why else would you sack Gianfranco Zola (an average young manager with potential to become great) to replace him with Avram Grant (a mediocre experienced manager who specializes in relegation and losing cup finals)?
This isn’t a perfect example, but I think there’s a comparison between Arsene Wenger and, say, Gareth Southgate. In Wenger’s first job, he got relegated with Nancy and sacked. Nevertheless Monaco had faith in him, hired him, and his career just went up from there. Then, look at Southgate. He got relegated, but had Boro in a solid playoff position when he was sacked (and of course, Strachan completely destroyed the team both financially and on the pitch). I can understand sacking him I guess, but the guy’s been basically blacklisted ever since. I feel like managers in foreign leagues get a lot more second / third chances, like Wenger, Lucien Favre (sacked from relegated Hertha, now leading Gladbach to a European place)…
Nothing like good ol’ socio-politics. The lack of English managers surely has to do with haring a country with other English-speaking nationalities. No one presumes to differenciate between a Scotsman and and a Welshman base on merit when their job doesn’t directly involve kicking the ball in a FIFA-sanctioned tournament. I wonder, did you include Basque and Catalan managers in Spain as Spanish or Non-Spanish? This also has to do with general strength of number of speaker of both English and Spanish. Spain too has the ability to draw on Spanish-speaking managers from across the Pond.
If you include Irish, Scottish and Welsh managers as English then it’s 15-5, better than the Spanish league. So English football’s problem is that it is the de-facto top tier competition for the rest of the Home Nations.
This article seems like a ZM version of an internet meme
This page is very interesting! Thanks to everyone.
My 2 cents on the subject… In my opinion the most important factors for the lack of elite English coaches are:
1) The traditional style of play in England doesn’t rely too heavily (euphemism?) on tactics. “Long ball and tackling”, right? Now this is of course not so true in recent years, but tenths of years of history in this respect must have affected coaching schools in England.
2) EPL has been the richest league in Europe for a long time now. More money attracts more people from everywhere: players but also coaches.
I already viewed plenty of sites working with such topics, for the most part of the people duplicate other site content, but each time to your site I see new & first-class stuff, nice walking.
Thank you for the good post! Can you please tell me where can I find more similar information? Have a good day!!
Saying thanks will not just be sufficient, for the phenomenal clarity in your writing. I will directly grab your rss feed to stay informed of any updates.
I have subscribed to your rss so I could continue to receive such wonderful information with your articles! I will share it with my friends, too!
I totally agree with what you are saying here! It there were more editors like you guys, there would be more such needed information available for free and with no registrations needed! Looking forward for the updates!