Man United 1-6 Man City: City turn a dominant performance into a historic thrashing

The starting line-ups
City crafted a clever first half advantage over United, then were rampant after half time.
Sir Alex Ferguson went with the 4-4-2ish shape he’s favoured this season (but moved away from last weekend at Liverpool). There was no Nemanja Vidic, nor Phil Jones at the back. Danny Welbeck was alongside Wayne Rooney.
Roberto Mancini had to replace Nigel de Jong with Yaya Toure (though this might have contributed to the fluidity of his side), and used Mario Balotelli rather than Edin Dzeko as the main striker.
City were the better side throughout the match, using the ball more efficiently in the final third and creating more opportunities. The scoreline of 6-1 overstates Mancini’s tactical triumph over Ferguson – three goals came in stoppage time, five came after Jonny Evans was sent off and the six came from ‘only’ seven shots on target.
But that should not detract from the fact that Mancini got his decisions right, and City were by far the better side against a team who had previouly gone 19 home games without defeat.
Formations
Both managers opted for the more attacking of their two potential formations – both broadly in a 4-4-1-1 shape, rather than the defensive-minded 4-5-1 / 4-3-3 that Ferguson used at Liverpool and Mancini switched to against Villarreal. The result was a game that was much more open than previous Manchester derbies – remember the dreadful 0-0 at the City of Manchester Stadium when both used three central midfielders?
There were obvious battles across the pitch – centre-backs against forwards, full-backs against wingers, central midfielders (in theory) against each other – it was pretty much a battle you’d expect from a 4-4-2 against a 4-4-2. Rooney and Sergio Aguero were dropping off, but both central midfield partnerships sat deep, denying them space between the lines.
Midfields
However, the midfield duos sitting deep meant that there were rarely challenges between them. They often had time on the ball – although Rooney and Welbeck dropped deeper and tried to stop service into Toure and Gareth Barry early on, letting the City centre-backs have the ball.
There was no creativity from this zone, though – Toure was more subdued than when he plays as the most advanced midfielder, whilst Darren Fletcher and Anderson is a combination that never looks right in a two-man central midfield duo, and United missed a deep-lying playmaker. In the first half of last season Ferguson clearly favoured a runner-passer model in a 4-4-2 – the only time he played Fletcher and Anderson together, United lost 4-0 in the Carling Cup at West Ham. He missed the presence of a Paul Scholes or a Michael Carrick, the two ‘passers’ from last season, who are both clever users of the ball, and Tom Cleverley could also have made an impact were he fit.
City had the same problem, but were cleverer higher up the pitch with their wide players. United’s stayed wide against the City full-backs and lost individual battles – Micah Richards was one of the best players on the pitch, and Gael Clichy coped with Nani well.
City, on the other hand, looked to overload the United full-backs, most obviously for the opening goal when James Milner came over from the right to link up with David Silva, and pulled the ball back for Balotelli’s cool finish. Milner was crucial in creating an extra man in key positions on both wings (see below) and at half-time that was the only difference between the sides, neither of whom had played well in the first half.
Evans off
It was impossible to tell if United had adjusted for the second half – Evans fouled Balotelli just a minute in, and was dismissed. United now had a problem – they trailed and had a man less. They couldn’t come out and press the ball to win it back quickly for fear of being overrun, but sitting back and letting City play keep-ball wasn’t an option either.
Strangely – but in the end, crucially – City didn’t play keep-ball. They kept trying to thread passes through the United defence, and Silva found room to become the game’s key player. Ferguson reacted to the red card by moving Smalling into the centre, Fletcher to right-back and Rooney to the centre of midfield. With Young, Rooney, Nani and Welbeck all on, still offered an offensive threat – but were open defensively. Milner again provided the extra player to square for Balotelli’s second.
Ferguson brought on Jones for Anderson and Hernandez for Nani, but they were hopelessly open in midfield, with no central midfielder (other than Jones) available on the bench to keep it tight in front of the defence. The defence was dragged all over the place, with Patrice Evra’s positioning again highly questionable, and City recreating their second goal, with Aguero finishing – also similar to his midweek goal at Villarreal.
Ferguson had essentially gambled at 2-0. He could have brought on Fabio, Park Ji-Sung or Antonio Valencia for more structure and hoped to get back into the game on the break, but felt the need to be more proactive with Hernandez. The gamble backfired – City showed no sign of letting up, and the number of chances late on was astonishing.
Silva was involved in everything, Dzeko came on to provide a renewed goal threat – and United either tired or gave up in stoppage time. 1-3 as we went into the 90th minute became 1-6 by full-time – the difference between a sound beating and a historic thrashing.
Conclusion
In tactical terms, City were not five goals better. However, they were still better. Nothing of note came from the central midfielders or the forwards early on, and it was all about bringing the wide players inside and across the opposite flank to overload the opposition. City did it well, whilst United appeared much more like the linear, functional side of last season than the fluid, creative side that started this season.
The most significant element of the second half was not any clever decision making, but the sheer ruthlessness with which City opened up United. There was no intention of keeping the ball, frustrating United and bringing out the olés from the visiting supporters – they tore United’s defence apart in a manner the Premier League has rarely, if ever, seen.
Embarrassment aside, United’s problems are not nearly as serious as a 1-6 home defeat would suggest. There needs to be a serious think about how the central midfield zone works, however. There was no creativity from that zone, nor much defensive protection for the back four. No-one expected six goals to be conceded here, but the statistics did indicate that United were vulnerable to a sudden heavy defeat.
Man United 1-6 Man City: City turn a dominant performance into a historic thrashing





You can talk about tactics all you want, but the players really do make the difference, and Silva gave one of the best performances Old Trafford has seen in recent years. Probably the best player in the league at the moment.
Since this is a website about tactics, I think tactics are going to be talked about.
Ah someone got there before me…
hey man i am a ManUnited fan and i thought that this season was going to be a walkover and any interesting thing would be to beat barca in the CL final this time around seems like a new challenge is at our hand but any way what do u think about the chelsea QPR game watched it and was surprised to see chelsea completely dominate the game with 9 men and the only thing i could notice about chelsea was that their players just had more room to go around on the pitch seemed interesting to have more skilled players having more room to exploit can u do analysis of that match too.
good point
players make a difference BECAUSE of tactics.
I believe players win and lose the games. I like reading zonal marking and following tactics because it helps me better understand how players win and lose games.
and tactics make a difference BECAUSE of good players.
I think players ARE part of the tactics.
The smartest one…
Can someone tell me what Barry offers? His tackling is poor, his passing is poor. I don’t get it.
I thought Micah Richards was kind of poor actually. He lost virtually every battle against Ashley Young. He prevented most of the crosses from getting in but gave away a dangerous free kick or corner almost every time. In the final third he gets tunnel vision and goes down blind alleys except for the one simple cross which led to Aguero’s goal.
I have to agree with you on Barry. He’s not much of a passer and yet at the same time you rarely see him put a foot in in his own third, more than half the time he’s just jogging about.
Barry is a good passer actually, he plays the simple balls well, is a calm presence, and has very good positioning (probably his best attribute).
He isnt much of a tackler i agree, but thats why hes partnered with toure or de jong, who are great tacklers and provide the stamina barry misses.
I would also say, barry isnt creative enough in his position to ever become world class there, he lacks the vision to create opportunities from deep.
But he is still a very good player, and is a player city need to partner the likes of toure/de jong.
Micah Richards completed 100% of tackles attempted so to say he lost “virtually every battle against Ashley Young” would be a complete lie.
I think you were watching the wrong game – Richards was immense. Won all his tackles contrary to your false assertion, and was all over the field.
3 interceptions
3 successful tackles
5 clearances
2 blocked shots
2 out of 3 successful aerial take-ons
20/32 on passes
1 assist to Aguero on a sick low cross
involved in the build-up to Balotelli’s goal in the 60th minute
2 off-target shots
Feel as if this has been coming for some time, chelsea could have got 6, norwich could have scored many. City did not even play as well as they can, but were very clinical, can’t remember them wasting even a half-chance.
Until Dzeko came on. He was very lucky to come in against a defense that had quit playing. He should have scored 4 or 5 goals.
Given that City use two wide players who cut in, a striker who likes to drop into space and three central midfielders – two of which whom enjoy stepping forward with the ball and playing forward passes – can we say that Fergie got it wrong on his team selection? When they lost to City last season in the cup a large part of it was that the midfield got over-run. Someone sitting in front of the back-four would have helped United’s cause a whole lot today.
My thoughts exactly. United’s 2 central midfielders were outnumbered. Not by central midfielders, but by 2 wingers and a deeper forward. This also created room for City’s fullbacks to run into space. This didn’t create any problems defensively as both City’s central midfielders and the center backs easily contained United’s strikers.
it was modern football. 4-6-0 as Parreira predicted a long time ago. playing with out-n-out winger was a mistake. Rooney dropping deep will never compensate for the fact that Welbeck cannot dominate a forward line alone. SAF got it all wrong today, but the cracks have been showing for a while.
personally, haevn’t learned anything new from this game. De Gea wont work magic, Silva is a class apart, and Balotelli can play as good as he wants
Bingo. Fergie did get his selection wrong. I think a comfortable thrashing of Arsenal who played a similar 4-2-3-1 might have given confidence to Fergie in playing the vulnerable 4-4-2. Also Milner was immense today thriving on both wings and also tracking back on more than one occassion to help out Micah Richards when Young had the ball. United are missing Cleverly very sorely and it is showing. The duo of Fletch-boy and Anderson is just not working but Fergie is somehow happy with them. i would have personally prefered Carrick or Park.
Absolutely, and not for the first time this year.
How many times did Ferdinand have to come out to where a DM should have been, resulting in space being left behind for City to exploit. Having a player in front of the defence could possibly have prevented at least 3 of the goals and the red card (although who’s to say it wouldn’t have created another problem elsewhere, but more than likely would have helped).
Evra was out of position for 4 of the goals, and I make it 12 out of 17 chances created were on the left side of United defence.
On the red card, what (apart from about 20 yards) was the difference between Kompanys’ foul on Welbeck just before half time which resuted in a yellow, and Evans’ challenge which was a red card – Lescott was not in a covering position, had Welbeck carried on it would have surely been a clear goal scoring opportunity?
Lescott WAS in position to defend. Company wasn’t the last man defending. The ref was spot on the entire match except for the mercy he showed to United by allowing Evra to stay on the pitch near the end. Though with the way Evra played, it likely wouldn’t have made a difference.
O so you do a report on this because it’s a “Mighty Premier League game” but you don’t do one for a much more interesting tactical game with more technical players (Sevilla vs Barcelona)?
Fuck off your websites going to fuck mate.
What kind of a stupid comment is this?
I don’t think that ZM’s not gonna cover the sevilla vs Barca match,
neither I do not believe that technical quality of players makes games more interesting (or tactically interesting), and the Manchester players are not inferior to Sevilla and Barca in terms of technical quality. Furthermore, It was not the technical quality, and not the tactical victory, but the storming performance from the goalie that made the 0-0 result.
Shame on you.
well, in terms of the technical quality: noone is able to compete with this barca-side.
well, that’s true, barca are undoubtedly at the top.
but I was comparing City + United and Barca + Sevilla
ha ha Sevilla are clearly ahead of United in terms of technical ability,did you watch United today? There is no good passing or intelligence at all,Fergies tactics are a simple matter of giving it to Young and Nani to cross the ball.Yawn.
Compare Sevillas performances compared to Uniteds performances vs Barca and you can clearly see Sevilla are capable at playing the ball out from the back under pressure while keeping the ball and United are not.
Plus Sevilla can defend while Uniteds defence and tactics are a disgrace to the modern game.
Sevilla played a veeeeeeeeeeeery deep defensive formation. And they denied Barca by narrowing the lines and play on the counter. And Barca was Barca all game long…
I agree. Barca vs Sevilla wasn’t very interesting. Sevilla were hopelessly overmatched and resorted to a bunker defense. Barca had numerous chances but failed to put one away. Sevilla played solid bunker ball and got lucky with Barca’s finishing.
Exactly. Had Barca scored early like they did last year, we would have seen another 5-0. Great goalkeeping does not equal great tactics.
Then stop reading it mate and create your own…
Cheers…
Hi:
I was watching Juve last night so didn’t have time to write about that game. I saw some of it. Guardiola got his tactics wrong, in my view. The 3-4-3 didn’t work, and when they shifted back to 4-3-3 they didn’t quite look comfortable, Messi on the right seemed a bit odd to me. Sevilla did well, but nothing special – more Barca’s mistakes than Sevilla’s genius, I thought (having seen only about 70% of the game).
Thanks for the innovative comment. I think it’s the first time someone has complained about a historic 1-6 result being covered rather than a 0-0
Zm- you are all class. What a gracious comment
seconded, but i did lol at ian’s comment, since the last sentence doesn’t really make any sense at all.
“I think it’s the first time someone has complained about a historic 1-6 result being covered rather than a 0-0″
That makes sense,because this match had a higher score it must have been more interesting tactically.
Actually you will find that more often than not the opposite is true which was also the case with these 2 games.
Ah, changing your name? Can still see your IP address, but nice attempt to come across as a different person agreeing with yourself. Bravo.
Did I say it made it more tactically interesting? No, merely that it was the first time someone had complained in that respect.
Just amused that you’d think I would *not* cover the match between the two title contenders in the most popular league around. Especially when it’s such an unusual scoreline.
The good thing about people like you that immediately go for abuse? I’m delighted I haven’t covered the game you wanted to read about. Farewell.
Seems to be at least one of these on every post now. Discussion of the tactics is where we all learn, but some people obviously can’t realise if this continues, you have an easy option to close posts to all comments.
If people don’t like it, don’t visit – like them people that write in to Points of View (BBC tv programme) about how rubbish a particular program is – just don’t watch it and find something else to utilise your time, leave it to other people who enjoy it.
You think you have some kind of power over everybody on your shitty little website.Can’t win a debate so you block them lulz.
Most popular league around according to an idiot like you says a lot about the quality of the EPL.
Nice reply ZM.
“I’m delighted I haven’t covered the game you wanted to read about. Farewell”
Okay, don’t cover the Barca games. Barcelona is the best team in the world, I know there are lots of jealous people like you (they call them EPL fanboys) who don’t like them, so nothing new for me here. Also, they don’t need your review. there are thousands of tactics websites on the net. I used to like this website, but that is a very disrespectful comment.
Have a good day.
Barcelona are probably the most-covered team on this site (at a guess). They’re probably the best side ever and Guardiola is one of the most fascinating managers ever.
The comment was because he was abusive – so why would I want to have gone to effort to write an article to please him? It’s nothing to do with whichever team he was talking about.
“Fanboy” is amusing considering every comment you leave is about one team! A quick check of your comments on the site shows you haven’t been enjoying it for a long time. Complaint, complaint, complaint. Why not go on the thousands of other internet football sites around. You obviously don’t like it, so don’t come!
Hahaha, what an idiot Ian is and congratulations for putting him in his place.
Yesterdays Manchester derby is the reason fans pay to watch football. How anyone can say that they would rather watch a 0-0 bore draw over a 1-6 top of the table clash between rivals is beyond belief!!!
They clearly don’t understand what football is all about.
hahahahaha epic rinse by zm. well played.
Guardiola played Messi on the right already in the previous game (against Racing), it kinda worked then, though probably against Racing everything would work, not sure what’s the sense in the that either. Messi as false 9, Villa on the wing was working well.
The fact that ZM is moving away from what this website is supposed to be about(covering tactically interesting games)and moving towards simply covering “Super Sunday” games just because there the most hyped games says a lot about where this website is heading.
I watched this game, and I watched (most of) the Barcelona game. I considered this game to be much more interesting tactically.
“Ooh let’s chuck a dig in at the Premier League / Super Sunday in there to sound alternative and intelligent, and use the word ‘hype’ too, yeah that will be a great argument” – what a nonsense. Sorry if you don’t like the website any more – good news is that others do so you won’t be missed! x
I watched most of that game too, and Sevilla seemed to be living a charmed life. I was surprised to see Armenteros in this game – has he been playing notably well?
Funny how we’d say now that it’s weird to see Messi on the right, when that used to be his spot for a couple years.
Also, don’t sweat the hater (not that I had assumed you do), because your site kicks ass and haters are a dime a dozen..
Yay! ZMs got some “tude”!
Ha, I think ZM is my internet hero. Firstly he runs this awesome website which seems to usually only bring about a pretty educated level of discussion. But furthermore, on the rare occasion that some idiot spouts his mouth off, ZM deals with them in a way that is both dignified and appropriately dismissive. Bravo!
stupid comment but i was hoping for a barca – sevilla rundown. (whoops. should read the thread before commenting.)
Don’t feed the troll!
Here is my recommendation:
-Watch the game
-Write a list of things that did and didn’t work for both sides
-Write your own tactical analysis
-Enjoy
In my opinion, ZM is actually covering an impressive range of matches. Even though I support Man U and some of our bigger games haven’t been covered, as they were more last season, I welcome the variety.
Also, it is just a bloke so maybe he can’t watch every game
You nobtwat.
My replies keep going to the wrong place- sorry, the nobtwat was directed at the nobtwat nobody else
United’s defence was finally exposed for the shambles that it is. Evans has been getting away with murder for too long, Smalling is not a fullback and Ferdinand is very much in decline. At present, De Gea is far from the £18m miracle worker United were hoping for.
Balotelli is the best young player in the league (pace and power in abundance) and city have so many attacking options taking them on with a 4-4-2 that doesn’t provide much defensive protection on the wings was a second tactical disaster from Ferguson in 8 days following the unnessary decision to park the bus at Anfield.
As a goalkeeper coach, that’s a very hard comment to make about De Gea. He did very well – his positioning was good, he made some good saves and he did the best he could with the train wreck of defenders in front of him.
dude, if a defense that can call on Vidic, Jones, Smalling, the Brazilian twins, Ferdinand and Evra (even if the latter two are in decline) is a “shambles” then what derogatory terms would you use for basically every other defense in club football? They had an off day. It happens. Chelsea lost to QPR and Arsenal got spanked to the tune of 8 goals not that long ago. I’m no Manchester fan, but I think that a reasonable person has to admit that most teams would gladly trade defensive personnel with Man U if they could afford to, no questions asked. Jones and Smalling could be the CBs for Man U and England for the next decade if they come along as expected.
If you wish to blame keepers for the scorelines of games, that’s certainly your prerogative, but the fact remains, in this game, that the United defence, whilst very good, was NOT VERY GOOD vs Manchester City, and it was carved up like a chicken. They did indeed have an ‘off day’ – but days like that aren’t the keeper’s fault. He’s easy to blame though.
Joe, my good man and namesake, you misinterpret me. I was not slighting Mr. De Gea, who seems like a solid keeper in spite of this defeat. I was instead calling into question the warped sensibilities of people like Willis, whose comment we were both replying to, and who wrote, “United’s defence was finally exposed for the shambles that it is.”
If Man U’s defense is a shambles, what do you call Wigan’s, or Osasuna’s, or Schalke’s, or Inter’s, or Bolton’s, or Leverkeusen’s, or Zaragoza’s? Catastrophes? Disasters? Train Wrecks?
Idiotic hyperbole and knee-jerk “It’s a CRISIS!!!” BS annoy me, and I was calling Willis out for it. Wasn’t blaming the keeper for the defense’s off day, but rather asserting that an off day doesn’t detract from their high quality overall and in relation to most of their competition.
Some comments here are pretty mental. What’s wrong with people? How can you even complain to some guy’s personal website. Some act like their taxes are used to mantain this website. Oh, God.
I’m sorry to make a new entry just to say this. I found the piece interesting anyway.
Second. The line about people acting like their taxes are used to maintain this website slayed me. And is totally spot on.
this may be a little odd considering how well city are playing, but i will try to start something here.
why do you think that shaun wright-phillips found it so hard to play here. he is pacey, technical and skillful. his height may be a disadvantage, but silva and nasri are similar. the only thing i can think of is that he is more of a straight-line-runner, he doesn’t drift across the pitch trying to pick clever passes or retaining possession.
i am discussing this here because i was always intrigued by mancini’s reluctance to play him and he never motivated his decision.
I think he lacks the quality, mentally, to play in a side like this. Summed up by his headless chicken act v Chelsea today!
Football is about opinions. And it’s clear mancini just never rated SWP.
Spot on ZM,as a long standing city fan it has been obvious to me for a while that whilst SWP is skilful and has pace, he lacks the ‘footballing intelligence’ to play in Mancini’s city team
Just to reply to this one.
I think one of the defining features here was the willingness of the city “wingers” to come onto the same side and join up in attack, most clearly for the second goal, if I remember correctly, where milner and silva linking up cut united open.
Uniteds wingers, while they like to come inside and shoot, or cross, very, very rarely try to link together and create play, they typically play more like traditional wingers, hugging the line and getting wide to stretch play. Over and above that the two players city played wide have both spend time playing int the middle, where more technical quality is needed and this shows, especially with silva as he doesnt just cut in to shoot (as the likes of nani do) he also cuts in to play passes through.
This is why city found it so easy to get into situations where united were outnumbered, they constantly had situations when the two guys who were meant to be the wingers were on the same side of the pitch, and this along with the attacking RB and LB meant that they at times had 3 v 1, when young or nani was caught up the pitch, when you have those sorts of numbers you tend to score goals!!!
Finally I thought that Aguero was rather quiet, but he was effective, dropping deeper and allowing balotelli to stay higher up the pitch and thus keep the united CBs deep, this then allowed silva the space to operate as he liked, finding space between midfield and attack and drifting across the width of the pitch.
A consumate performance from city to punish a tactically poor united side.
Strange that fergie went ultra defensive away to a pretty average liverpool side (and Im a liverpool fan!) and decided to go so gung ho against a top class city side! Finally, am I the only one who thinks welbeck is properly shite, genuinely not good at all, and I hope for englands sake that sturridge gets much more chance than he does, sturridge is leagues better than welbeck is, as shown by his headless chicken in this game, totally ineffective.
completely agree with you about welbeck – yeah he’s scored a few goals this season, but i’d argue who wouldn’t have playing for man utd? not good enough for man utd or england i don’t think. hernandez would have been a better choice yesterday for me. and fully agree re sturridge, a much better player than welbeck – how he isn’t in the england squad i’ll never know!
Not sure Hernandez wouldve been my pick?
I think a 4 5 1m rooney alone up top, young or nani left, valencia on the right and then carrick, giggs and fletcher would have been a better bet, cut out the space that guys like silva operate in, spark counters quickly, and recycle possession faster and more efficiently via the likes of carrick. and of course, playing evans is bizzare, a truly awful player.
I find all the hearning after sneijder strange if not properly wierd, the guy has played his entire career in variations of 3 man midfields, generally as the most advanced of the 3. what on earth makes utd fans think he could suddenly just fit into a 4 4 2, the problem here came precisely from midfielders who are too ambitious with their running and passing, not enough calm heads who just recycle. All the top teams in the world have at least one player who is in the team primarily to offer an option, stop counters by intercepting and tracking and who plays simple pass. What makes fergie think he can get away without one confuses me!
I think the more concise description would be that he simply lacks the quality to play in a side like this. He’s just not very good. Headless-chicken is about right.
Good report as usual ZM, Evans had a dreadful game!
Shame for him, thought he was good v Chelsea
Out of curiosity, is the qpr vs chelsea game going to be covered? (just a question not a loony demand like we saw with varfa)
Afraid not I was writing about this game!
kk
Ah ignore this i saw a comment below!
–Did you manage to watch any of the game? I didn’t see it but from what I’ve read QPR really struggled to make the 2 man advantage tell and Chelsea performed very well.
Yes if you have the time could you please share your opinions on the chelsea game? I thought it was a valiant effort by AVB to recover from such circumstances, and he/they nearly did earn a point!
This might satisfy u:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2011/oct/23/chelsea-andre-villas-boas-mourinho
My thoughts were these always…
United escape in most of their matches with their solid defending and quick counterattacking through the wings. But when faced with big matches they always have relied on some big men like Scholes, Giggs or Park to shore up the centre of midfield.
Fergie ought to have signed Sneijder exactly for these type of matches. HE thought he could get away using his wing play.. but they were cruelly exposed tdy…
Fletcher/Anderson: No creativity/poor play in ball retention
When Nani has an offday he is truly irritating to say the least.
Jonny Evans is a disaster waiting to happen always. Phil Jones would have been a much better choice.
Why Welbeck and nt Hernandez ?? could not explain that in a big match.
The best way for Fergie was to stuff his midfield and play 4-5-1 with Rooney alone up front: Exactly the same way he kept beating up Arsenal in the past two seasons… Quick on the counter…
Dunno how this team is gonna get up from such a thrashing in a derby like this…
Cheers
Jayanth
I questioned this too, he always seemed okay to play 451 against arsenal, because they could cut through his usual open midfield. Why not play this formation today against City. City have silva the best creative midfielder in the premiership, he needed to be stifled!
A midfield of carrick, fletcher and anderson would have given more protection to the defense, while an attack of rooney, nani and young would have a big threat on the break, much more than they looked today.
Cant help but feel Ferguson was too arrogant, thinking he could outplay City, but Man United’s best attribute is there tactical flexibility, and 451 could have gotten a win, even a draw wouldnt have been too bad.
“Why Welbeck and nt Hernandez ?? could not explain that in a big match.”
Hernandez doesn’t offer a great deal during the build up, or ball retention, whilst his ‘defensive contribution’ is also not as notable as Welbeck.
I think SAF got it right in putting faith on the successful 4-4-2 for this match. We just didn’t have the right personnel on defence and in midfield for it to work. We got away lucky for so many matches, it was only a matter of time before we make a mess with our shambolic defensive record thus far. It’s just painful that it has to be Man Shitty that’s giving us the damn wake up call.
How can you say he got it right playing the 4-4-2, then immediately admit to not having the right personnel? If he didn’t have the right personnel, then he got it wrong. That is what tactics are about right? Matching the right system with the right personnel to best nullify/expose the opposing team’s players and tactics.
fergie is getting deluded unfortunately – his tactics is beyond naive to be honest , the same applies to barcelona matches, embarrasing also “we don’t need sneijder” bullshit backfired finally and heavilly
I thought it was admirable to not buy Sneijder actually. Contrary to the approach of some teams (*cough* City *cough) he was willing to give his kids a run out and not feel like has has to own all the talented players. I find this attitude of “we must always buy numerous famous players every transfer window” to be ugly and stupid, in fact. they bought Smalling, Jones, Young, and still you people bitch that it’s not enough.
Agree 100%
This might be because I’m a huge Inter fan, but I never understood why United would go for Sneijder. If anything, they lack a proper defensive midfielder, they have a number of players who could play Sneijder’s role (though likely not as well), it’s winning the ball back in midfield that they need.
I feel that Ferguson is always try his best to set up attacking team and get punished by good team more often than not. Rooney often help defense a lot but he is forward player not a midfielder, Anderson is no use in defense mode and Fletcher is not up to 100% condition yet.
It was Park run this two men midfielders stunt show for three seasons. Feel Ferguson test young players in this game to see whether they can cope hard game or not and it is backfired badly.
United need one central mid or team will struggle with exactly same pattern to last season. I cannot understand why not bring one useful CM at Aug.
out of interest what CM’s would you like man united to buy?
Don’t know if I’m being stupid here or not, but when I hear united fans say they have to buy sneijder, I laugh a bit. Sniejder never plays many games over a season, plus he plays almost as a second striker that he wouldn’t solve a midfield problem – he might even disrupt rooney. Personally I think schweinsteiger would be better at solving united’s midfield problem since he can control the tempo of the match and provide excellent defensive cover as well as good attacking with his excellent passing range.
exactly. He doesnt play as a midfielder who picks the ball off the defence and dictates he plays as a trequartista, so you’re right he wouldnt improve man united much in this area as they’d have to move rooney to accomodate.
I hate talking about buying players so early in the season, but someone like Yaan M’Vila or Javi Martinez
Haven’t seen M’Vila play. Would love Javi Martinez.
Martinez would be a good addition but still doesn’t solve the scholes-type player you’re missing, as J.Martinez’s passing is average at best and is famous for his strength and breaking up the play.
No need fancy player, Just decent one. United lack of CM option. Look at game just Anderson and co let City players past them freely. Defensive one will do.
Yeah United usually lets the creativity come from the wings. Our central midfielders are usually more defensive(one of the reasons that Anderson has been so inconsistent for United).
scholes?
Xavi & Iniesta?
Man United – Today, the whole defense didnt look up to scratch. Against a really good attack like Man City’s, they just wernt good enough. Ferdinand and Evans actually look like they have a good relationship (I remember them playing together quite a bit a few seasons ago) and against a weaker team, could have done a good enough job. But Ferdinand lacks his old pace and was exposed by balotteli. While Evans doesnt concentrate enough (leading to mistakes aka Sending off) and doesnt read the game well enough to stop talent like this. Evra is in very bad form (has been for a while now) and surprisingly has had positional problems, which for a experienced player like him is very disappointing. While Smalling understandably had positional problems.
The midfield selection was a mystery, Anderson and Fletcher are both good at breaking up play and giving energy to the midfield. But neither are very good on the ball or have a great footballing brain, and more importantly neither is a holding player. This was a game for Carrick to play in if ever there was one. He is great at playing between the lines thereby disrupting silva’s area of expertise, and is very intelligent on the ball, something Man United needed today.
I actually thought nani and young did okay today, they looked dangerous when given the chance, but were up against good fullbacks, who didnt need to be too adventurous as man city lead for most of the match.
The big problem was playing rooney with welbeck, this was similar to Man United playing too up top against Barcelona in the champions league final, it gave them a disadvantage in midfield, that they couldn’t get over. Rooney needed to play up front as a lone striker today, with young and nani playing off of him. This would have arguably been more of a threat to Man city, but also more importantly let Man united have a 3 man midfield.
Man United should have played carrick, Flecther, Anderson in midfield to help stifle Man City, and have a front 3 of rooney, nani and young.
or maybe carrick, flectcher and park might be better, park seems more defensively aware, and also seems to pop up with goals in big games.
Perhaps Carrick, Park and Anderson/Fletcher with the other on the subs bench.
One of SAF concerns probably with Carrick is that he hasn’t played well against ManCity in their last two meetings: the FA Cup Semi and the Charity Shield first half (2-0). In the semi, it was Toure who tore him up. In the Charity Shield, it was Anderson & Cleaverly in the second half who helped spur the comeback.
I think in this one, perhaps SAF thought Mancini would again push Toure up and use a defensive MF.
Up front, Young-Rooney-Welbeck-Nani has been effective against City in the Charity Shield. One gets the sense of what SAF was trying, and they weren’t awful in the first half, just lacking some the final bit to create scoring chances. I does seem that City’s defense was more aware than in August to soak up ManU possession without allowing them to create chances. That was lacking in the other direction: ManU defensively had issues in the first half preventing City from creating chances.
It did seem both last weekend and here that these were games for Park to have a central MF role.
carrick thrives in a 3 man midfield though, he could played deep in front of the defense, then park and fletcher could have pressed toure and barry.
City played different tactics in that match if i recall,more like last season with toure in AM.
Then if Man United needed too, they could have switched to a 442 in the second half and gone for it.
Totally agree on Evra. His positional problem was the main reason of at least 4 of City’s goals. A bit surprise that ZM did not point this out specifically
Milner was MOTM for first hour, but then Silva took over and ran the show. Surprisingly Nasri has very little impact.
It is also interesting that Mancini took off Balotelli and Aguero when there was still plenty to play/offer. Was it to protect player physically or just to give playing time to Dzeko/Nasri? Any thoughts?
A brilliant BPL sunday with some many outstanding individuals today: Gervinho, VDV, and referees from QPR/Chelsea game
I completely agree on Evra. He has lost his form. Surely time to try Fabio. It is time Ferg realises that Evans is a back-up CB.
Just realised I’ve posted above, albeit you beat me to it, stating the same thing re Evra – out of position for 4 out of 6 goals today, 12 of 17 chances created were on the left side.
agree, Evra has looked very suspect all season long..
Samir Nasri is the joint first assistant in the league with 6 (joint with davis silva) so he is quite effective, but i feel it could be similar to the kaka Ozil problem at madrid, where they become alternatives as oppposed to partners
not sure if that would actually qualify as a problem as they are both show runners
Silva more so than nasri as he has a few years more experience
I think 4 of those assists were in one game though.
We have been poor for a few weeks now and this is the kick in the teeth we needed to wake this team up. This loss makes some of the problems became more obvious. Evra has been the weakest link of the back four no matter who has been playing there this season. Evans made the game changing mistake but, not surprising this good run of form couldn’t last long with him. Ferdinad has been pretty poor lately as well. Smalling was ok but it is obvious his natural position is CB but, he has to play there because Fabio and Rafael are made of glass. Our only central midfield pairing that has worked this season is Cleverly and Anderson. Nani and Young were good in the first 20 minutes but dissappeared soon after. Rooney and Welbeck were decent but, had had to drop back deep to get the ball all game.
Some quick notes on City. Silva, Aguero, Clichy and Kompany all excellent. Balotelli was excellent as well and I loved his celebration he helps keep this game fun. Richards was fantastic as well I have no idea why he isn’t England’s starting right back.
Man city – There back four really impresses me. Kompany and Lescott have a great partnership, and its great to see lescott getting a good run of games, he really suits Kompany, as he gives balance with his left foot, and also has very useful pace (kompany’s one weakness). Clichy already looks like a new player with city, and has improved defensively and mentally. Richards is in great form (i agree with above, how is he not starting for england??) and kept young quiet, while getting forward really well (getting yet another assist).
City’s weakness this season has been there midfield, and i do think they could be overun in that zone (as shown by Bayern munich). Toure is a great player (maybe even world class in his position) and breaks up play well, whilst getting forward to good effect. Barry is a good player but not great, he has positional awareness, is a calm presence and passes very well. But he lacks a “footballing brain”, and doesnt all ways pick the right choice and isnt very creative. Man city also lack that 3rd midfielder like Man united, but with silva coming inside, they tend to make for it, with silva excellent at keeping possession.
There forward options are soo good too. This comes i believe with the flexibility of all there players. Aguero, balottelli and silva can play across the pitch. Silva was soo good today, creating with ease. Milner has underrated good movement, was a big threat and obvs enjoys playing with better players. Aguero was a big threat with his pace. Bolattelli was very impressive with hsi movement and build up play too. He looks better there than Dzeko.
Personally, I’ve thought City’s defense in general has looked best when they use Toure, Kompany and Richards – Lescott generally doesn’t impress me, though he sure looked solid in this game.
Bottom line is they look like a team somebody made by cheating at manager mode in FIFA, and when they don’t dominate it’s sort of embarrassing.
Oh Patrice! Another woeful performance from our controversial Frenchman. To say his positioning was poor is the understatement of the year! He has been consistently bad this season and just doesn’t look interested.
I can forgive bad positioning now and again especially from an attacking full back when caught on the break, however when caught out of position Evra made no effort to get back. On at least 2 occasions he was walking back when he could have made a difference if he had bothered to run.
If you watch the first half of the Champions League Final again, you will see he poor positioning and indecision invited a lot extra pressure on United’s defence.
Time for Fabio to get a run at Left Back!
Rooney moved to CM, yes because of red card, however it’s not the first time this season we’ve seen this – Is this the future for Wazza?!
no
It might be that he becomes an out and out no.10 behind the strikers when he’s in his 30s and (if) his pace starts to drop.
But no, I don’t think he’ll ever be a box-to-box midfielder like he had to be after the sending off and reshuffle on Sunday.
Mainly because it would restrict his creative qualities, rather than an inability to perform the role.
Silva and Nasri are completing passes at an extraordinary rate for ‘wingers’ (I know they’re not exactly that) this season – 88 percent each.
Of United’s midfielders, even the central ones who you’d expect to complete a higher percentage of passes, only Fletcher matches those two (though after the first few games of the season Cleverley and Anderson were both close to 90%).
Tactics aside, Silva was on another level today & Richards had his best game for years.
Silva was immense today BECAUSE of tactics. I.e. his movement into the hole was the reason why he was so dangerous – and man united didn’t nullify that as smalling chose not to track that movement and keep his position.
I think Balotelli’s movement today was well worth mentioning besides his goals. He contributed just as much to the ”flank overload” as Milner did in my opinion. Granted, he didn’t perhaps receive the ball as often as Milner did, but he was where the ball was pretty much troughout the match.
And thanks again for the article!
Just wanna point out how much more recognition Silva is getting in the EPL. He hasn’t improved that much since his Valencia days, yet now he is regarded as arguably the best midfielder in the world (I hear a lot of people putting him over Iniesta). He has always been great, yet when he was in La Liga, he was a good player among numerous midfielders on his level and higher. A player who has good technical abilities in Spain, usually ends up looking like Maradona in the EPL. Not saying La Liga is better than the EPL, just that the difference in technicality and passing is huge. Let’s say Iniesta is the standard and is a 10/10. Then Silva is maybe around 8/10 or something like that. If Silva is this amazing in England, it just makes me think how guys like Xavi, Messi, and Iniesta would look if they played there…
And Ronaldo has scored at a higher percentage in La liga then he did his last 3 seasons at United. Carvalho looked past it his last 2 seasons at Chelsea but, revived his career at Real Madrid. Pique was constantly beaten by pace at United but immediately look like an elite CB once back in La Liga. So it cuts both ways.
“And Ronaldo has scored at a higher percentage in La liga then he did his last 3 seasons at United.” You’re talking about something different. You’re trying to argue that the EPL is stronger in some ways as well. That’s not what I care about, I only want to talk about the one point I made, the difference in technical skills between players in Spain and England.
Ronaldo is playing better because he is better, and he is in an amazing team. I’m not saying La Liga is better than the EPL, just that it is a lot more technical. I’m not talking about defenders or statistics. Mainly play makers and attackers, who have good skills. The decent midfielders in La Liga are on par with the very best midfielders in England. There are very few attacking midfielders and wingers in England who would be able to succeed in Spain, because their skills aren’t at that level. And of those, maybe only one or two of them are EPL-raised players.
while spanglish may be trying to engage you on slightly different terms, I find your assertions questionable.
If Pique’s so effing slow, you’d think Man U with all its pace would have been able to take advantage of that in last year’s final, eh?
Also not buying the “Carvalho looked past it” BS.
haha
I didn’t realize what I said was funny…
Though i agree that the original point is somewhat odd, you have to consider that Piqué had a pretty rocky six months or so when he returned to Barca. Esspecially the pace part. I don’t know how he did it, but he grew immensely in a very short time. One year later, we saw him out-pace Cron in the famous 6-2′er.
He was just a young lad at United, but has come into his own immensely in the past 3 or so years. On that note, its kinda sad, when you consider that Evans deservedly was in front of the pecking order in Piqué’s united-year, and now he’s an accident waiting to happen. I hope he picks himself up from that development.
It’s actually pretty true. Why doesn’t Man Utd simply trade Berbatov (the leading scorer of the PL last year) for a decent CM in Spain?
How can you say he hasnt improved, every player improves. I saw him loads for valencia, and he was great, but he didnt control games as much as he does now (comes with experience) and more importantly has better players around him than at valencia. Plus its not true there was loads of player on par with him, the ones you have mentioned (xavi, iniesta,, messi) are world class and above everyone. There isnt many players like silva. Look at Borja Valero, he couldnt cut it in the premier league but excelled in spain. By your logic he should have been amazing here in england. Your argument makes no sense.
Cazorla would’ve been great in England. He is Class!
all the pre-match talk was vidic or jones..and it turns out to be evans. & not because he’d preferred jones in m/f. such an awful cynical foul by evans. (why are these incidents never seen as cheating when defenders do it, but diving is ). like Fergie said, just let them run on, keep 11 men,and MB is not certain to score from there. i remember hearing Pele say, the fundamental rules of football are full of injustice. he ( Pele) beats 6 or 7 men. the 2nd last defender fouls him. his advantage with a free kick and they bring 10 men back to form a wall. most of the time, us football fans just accept this as being “fair”.
per soccernet, de Gea faced 7 shots on target. 6 conceded , 1 saved.. it was a good save but that kind of ratio rings alarm bells for me. haven’t studied the goals in detail since but Silva’s shot went right thru’ him, and i think thr 6th also looked saveable. doesn’t change the result but it does affect the media spin on the margin. these types of results can harm the victor more than the loser, as they get too cocky and think it’s all too easy.
utd’s squad still looks stronger than city’s. eg jones & vidic > savic & kolo toure.
utd have 5 strikers although berba’s chin must be nearly on the floor the way fergie is treating him. city only have 3, if tevez doesn’t play again, and balotelli who we all know is a loose cannon & could force them to be down to 2 at any stage. surely they will have to buy again in Jan.
You can’t be serious that Utd have a better squad than City’s? Maybe in Central Defense, but nowhere else.
The gap in midfield is big enough to create the difference between the teams on its own. Utd just don’t have players like Silva, Toure, and DeJong.
(BTW I’m a neutral here).
i’m neutral too.Evra had a poor game but is normally class. is Clichy any good defensively ?? . Kolarov also good going fwd but not great defensively. maybe indiv players, like the ones you cite, city have some better players but i was also referring to depth. is city reserve keeper any good ? chelsea have faltered with Hilario when Cech injured etc. city vulnerable to injuries in certain positions eg strikers. 1 injury and you have 2 players to cope with champs lge & EPL. or then forced to play 1 up front. don’ t know why city are wasting a squad place on injury prone Hargreaves. utd have many options in m/f carrick, jones, anderson, cleverley, giggs, fletcher. aided by guys who play 2 or 3 positions very well like jones & giggs. maybe even park.
good article as usual ZM. i do have one problem with the analysis, however. i think the first 15-20 mins of the match man u were actually better than city. both wingers looked dangerous and richards was very close to getting a booking after making several not quite bookable fouls. the goal was somewhat against the run of the play, just like in the charity shield a few months back.
i think after all the drama later on in the game its easy to forget about what happened at the start of the game, especially as not much happened in the first 20 mins. i’m not a man u fan btw, was supporting city in this game (should be irrelevant, but i know how football fans are, even on this enlightened website). i realise its not of the upmost importance tactically, but goals and redcards dramatically change the optimal tactics.
finally, on a different topic, would be interesting to see an analysis of the 2nd half of the chelsea game, as i was very suprised how close the game was with QPR having 2 extra players. i realise chelsea’s players are better, but tactically it should be game over surely. also, unlike most 9 vs 11 situations, the management had a chance to give a proper teamtalk to change the tactics, as the 2 dismissals happened before half time, so there isn’t much excuse for either team not being prepared for the unusual situation. do you think QPR were poor tactically in the 2nd half? or chelsea were just superb?
To be fair, it was 9 vs 10 for most of the second half. Chelsea got many chances to equalize but QPR got many chances to kill the game off. Chelsea played well in the second half except for getting a lot of bookings.
^^ True on Richards’ early troubles, but I’m not sure about ‘against the run of play’. United had the ball but they weren’t really threatening, in my view. I thought neither side playd well.
Re QPR – a bit of both. Frankly, I think that QPR’s players weren’t intelligent enough to keep the ball…
I agree 100% with the conclusion about United’s offense – everything went to either Nani or Young early on, and both looked incredibly poor (and credit to Richards & Clichy). With Anderson staying back and no Carrick or Cleverly, the team lacked dynamism in the offensive third. Milner also looked good, although when you line up against Patrice Evra nowadays, you set yourself up to succeed sadly.
Anderson and Fletcher are neither creative nor defensive, and Evans is horrendous.
Here’s my question: Why not Berbatov? I get that it’s second-guessing, and that if it wasn’t Welbeck it probably would have been Hernandez, but Berbatov has the ability to turn it on for big games and do decently well without support.
YEah I like Welbeck and when we are playing fast paced he is a much better option than Berbatov. But these last two PL games we needed someone who could hold the ball up and Berbatov is one of the best in the world in that regard.
Utd look thin. Evans is just not a natural defender, Ferdinand is getting towards the end, Evra is on the slide downhill. Tactically you might think that that hardly matters because they’re going to play a four man defence come hell or high water, but a weak central defence calls for the Defensive Central Midfielder whom they don’t have, not since poor Hargreaves proved unfit. Then you are looking at three central midfielders in all, and therefore only one central striker. If that’s Rooney then Wellbeck, Bulgarov, Sweet Pea and Owen are all redundant. So, not just thin but unbalanced. Except, didn’t they murder Arsenal just a few weeks ago?
Have you looked at the chalkboards for United’s front four? When they had the majority of possession I felt they had very little diagonal movement, the wingers didn’t seem to be trying to play through the channels and both forwards were quite static.
The moment I saw the starting lineups for Utd and City, I thought that City would beat Utd, but not this comprehensively.
Utd lineup did not have a defensive balance with a very doutful central midfield.
I thought Giggs and Park were sorely missed.
Anyway, this match demonstrates that the young guns of Utd are not yet good enough or mature enough to face a quality opposition liket City.
http://opitacoboleiristico.wordpress.com/2011/10/23/historico/
ZM, it is in portuguese, but I think you can take a look at that.
I’m thirteen and I am a big fan of yours.
Till next time!
The scoreline reads 1-6 to City, greeted with shock. Had it been 6-1 Utd less shock. Point is Ferguson’s casino gambling to ignore defence finally blew up. It was more Utd weakness than City prowess.
I think this game showed that perhaps United made a mistake in selling O’Shea. While not a standout player, he’s solid, dependably and arguably would have been a lot better option than Smalling for the right back position. Looking at the line ups I would have thought Silva would have had a great game up against Smalling, but most of the action came down City’s right hand side instead.
This playing centre backs at right back has been annoying me for a while. I understand that Rafael and Fabio are injured but it hasn’t been very successful anywhere this season. I’m thinking of Skrtel vs Tottenham (despite having a right back fit and available) and Jones at right back vs Montenegro up against Jovetic, a player similar to Silva as a left sided player who will drift into the centre, despite Capello having specifically called up Richards and Walker.
can someone tell me why Vidic didnt play?..he playe did week against those Romanians (whose team name i can begin to spell here..!), did he pick up a knock or something? I thought surely to God he would be the first name on the teamsheet?
Does anyone on here know why..?
the Romanian team is Otelul Galati, and you pronounce it Otzelul Galatzi. hope this helps.
and I don’t know why vidic didn’t paly, maybe he was injured.
SAF answered that question before kick-off. Vidic is back from a long layoff and with only 1.5 games under his belt, he felt would not be ideal to start the derby.
I really couldn’t understand Sir Alex’s tactics in this games.
1. Why did he even bother playing Jonny Evans, who is error prone as usual despite the fact Man C are fielding Balotelli and Aguero in this game? Shouldn’t have Phil Jones who is more solid in defence started?
2. Did Sir Alex did his homework on David Silva? Silva’s movement was good and Sir Alex had totally no answer nor a plan B to it.
3. What was Sir Alex thinking throughout the 2nd half? At one goal down, Sir Alex should have went to play a pressing game. Instead, they sat back, defended and let Man City tiki-taka their way throughout the game without really pressuring the Man City players, even in United’s half aside from cynical challenges that aimed at winning the leg than the ball. Granted Evans was sent off early, but Sir Alex should have reacted quickly, take off Welbeck for Jones with Rooney up front as a false nine in a 4-2-3 or 4-4-1 formation which can still allow bodies for pressing and attacking
MU must change their style of play to counter-attacking football like last season. Bring back solidity to defence and attacked the opponent by counter-attack.thats all
i want to say something about city’s ruthlessness, as ZM calls it nicely, while other pundits say it was an orgy, group rape and similar things.
in my opinion city were somehow forced to play like this by their own lack of versatility. at 0-1 they tried to play safer, kill the tempo and retain possession, but just couldn’t do it. and they tried that a few times later in the game. but every time man city just looked more dangerous and their biggest chances came in moments like these. so city could play in the only way they can, by going for the goal every time. it’s the only they know how to play (yet).
There was an article (before the international break ie before Liverpool game) discussing the fact United and Bolton conceded the most shots in the league and that their defence is poor and they were generally lucky not to concede more.
This article is interesting, but I disagree with almost all of it. About the only thing I think you’re correct about is Ferguson taking a gamble in taking Fletcher off after the red card, I would go further and say it was a blunder as United then got overrun in midfield: he’s our hardest working defensive midfielder.
I dissagree with the use of wide players being the difference, you state that United lost individual battles but on the left hand side every time Young went forwards he was drawing a foul or getting a cross in, Micah was lucky not to pick up a yellow in the first half. If the game had continued in that way United would definitely have had some joy either in the form of a converted free kick, cross or accumulation of yellows.
United were not outplayed in the first half, if you look at shots on/off target they had around the same, even including the goal for which Johnny Evans literally fell over.
United also dominated possession in the first half so your criticism of the midfield seems odd, when a 4-4-2 like this meets a 4-2-3-1 there’s little space in front of the box for midfielders to create so the play will naturally come down the wings. If anything the midfielders were at fault along with the defense with not tracking City’s midfield runners well enough.
For me the difference was not tactics but Ballotelli winning the individual battle with Evans (seemed to outmuscle him) and then Ferguson making a bad substitution.
But then I’m biased because I’m a United fan, and you’re biased because you seem to have a heavy preference to what you call a “fluid style” which basically seems to mean no old-fashioned wingers, probably because it’s tactically more interesting.
“If the game had continued in that way United would definitely have had some joy” – but the game didn’t continue this way, and tactics were partly responsbile for this. Young got the better of Richards for about 15 minutes and then was completely anonymous as Richards dominated him, though your point that a booking for Richards may have changed things is certainly pertinent. I don’t think United dominated early on. They had more possession, but they were creating little. As were City. Both sides played poorly. United certainly had a few shots, but they seemed to be hopeful long-rangers from Anderson and Rooney, if I remember correctly.
“You’re biased because you seem to have a heavy preference to what you call a “fluid style”” – Mmm don’t really get this comment, I’m not biased towards any playing system. But it was plain to see that Milner and Silva did their jobs excellently whilst Young and Nani were poor, and with the different in movement and positioning it’s perfectly reasonable to look at the differences.
“For me the difference was not tactics” – OK, but we’re talking tactics here; it is a website about tactics.
You make a fair point about this being a tactical website, my comment wasn’t a critique of your attempt to discuss tactics more a disagreement with your opinion that City dominated tactically. You are right about the shots being from Rooney and Anderson (nice memory) but to call them hopeful long rangers is a little harsh they were taken from just outside the box.
I agree that neither side created much in the first half but to disregard the first side as both sides playing poorly and then focus on the carnage a £200m front five can do to a team with ten men throwing on strikers is to give City too much credit, if anything as a tactical discussion of how both teams set up the first half is much more relevant. I’m off now, but I love the site keep up the good work!
Fair points, but I don’t think I gave them “too much credit” – I did stress that the five-goal margin was a crazy reflection of a relatively tight game, and that City were better without being in a different world. I think that’s fair, even if we disagree on the reasons for their victory.
Am a big fan of your work Zonal Marking, but agree with the gist of Antiphysicist’s assertion that declaring “City were the better side throughout the match” is unfair. United didn’t create a lot in the first half, admittedly, but their dominance of possession doesn’t suggest they were inferior in any way.
Either way, the long term issue of a substandard United midfield continues. Out of interest, what players would you suggest could improve that zone?
“I don’t think United dominated early on. They had more possession, but they were creating little. As were City. Both sides played poorly.”
Agree with this. The centre of the pitch seemed wide open until the first goal, allowing both sides the time to pass it around and get to the other end, but there was no end product from either side until Balotelli stepped up.
You could argue that City’s defence doing a far better job on the flanks than their Utd counterparts was the difference in the sides tactically, as the goals flowed for City from wide positions, whereas Nani and Young were kept quiet, making the presence of someone like Hernandez pretty much useless without service.
The massive difference in the scoreline at the end was due to the woeful indiscipline of the United players, who gave up on their shape like a Sunday pub team looking for a consolation goal. Perhaps having mental strength of ‘not knowing when you’re beaten’ is not always desirable.
United need a creative midfielder badly. Cleverley is being sorely missed and I think him and Fletcher would make a great pair. Cleverley’s movement and quick passing makes a huge difference, and Fletcher would provide the back up and protection that Anderson can’t.
This game reminded me of England Germany last summer with a 4-2-3-1 against a 4-4-2 with a patched up defence. City seemed to have similar joy in overloading the FB’s on either side of the pitch in a similar vain to Germany at the 2010 WC. Given this I think it was a mistake of SAF in using this formation with the players available, a 3 man midfield would have protected the defence better.
I believe the comments about a passer/runner combo are spot on. The problem with Fletcher and Anderson is they are both runners with no retention or creativity to their game. The reason United were better earlier in the season was that Cleverley is the passer, with Anderson the runner. Good thing about Cleverley is that he can also run and is like Scholes of the late 90s (not saying he is a carbon copy or that we have definitely found Scholes’ replacement); almost box to box with ability to use the ball well. Also without a passer who comes to get the ball from the centre backs, Citys midfielders aren’t invited onto Utd, leaving Rooney trapped in a box of 4 players and no midfielder with the guile to open it up.
Personally think midfield is the biggest issue, but hopefully if Cleverley comes back he can make some sort of difference. If not then more analyses of Utd could b eying Fergies lack of movement in the transfer window for another midfielder!
Great site and fantastic analyses of matches, keep up the great work
-United didn’t realize how much better City are, they’ll need 3 defensive mids next time.
-Man City don’t have a ton of wide, since their wingers are always moving inside.
Dominating possession without creating clear-cut chances is useless
I think people are starting to think cleverly is better than he is. Its that thing, when a player plays a few good games and then gets injured and his reputation just keeps getting bigger as the team under performs. Hes a good young player, but he wouldnt have made a difference today, his positioning is very poor, if anything he would have given away more space…
Carrick was the big miss today, a seasoned professional who would have gave man united a calming influence and good awareness in front of the defence. But then they should have played a 433/451 which is the bigger factor.
i think manutd has to many good forwards now , that also forces them to play two forwards.
Though I admit I haven’t seen much of City this season (or last), they do look better in attack. Last season, they were all about getting Tevez to do something, he was usually left isolated and City lacked penetration without him. This season, they seem more fluent.
It may be a very minor issue, but is it possible to suggest that inverted wingers can slow a team’s attack down too much? Fielding two inverted wingers usually leads to a very crowded midfield, Bayern pull it off because one of those two is Robben, but most teams that try end up underperforming.
ZM always says it about Nani, he’s better on the right than on the left, lately Messi has disappointed on the right side (although that’s because he prefers the centre, not the left), etc.
I didn’t reason my points too well admittedly, because I’m feeling lazy at the moment, but is it possible that we’re getting past the inverted wingers craze? I do think they should be played, but in partnership with “normal” wingers.
I agree with you. As a Spurs fan, it annoys me no end when Harry experiments with Bale on the right – where he’s ineffective. I think to be a successful inverted winger, you have to be 2 footed. Like Ronaldo or Robben (I know he’s left footed but not useless with his right foot). Because then fullbacks don’t know whether to back off and force you on to the touchline or let you cut in.
Even Bayern look more fluid this season playing only Ribery (who is also a world class talent) and not Robben. They’re more solid defensively as well, since Robben’s cutting inside made his lack of defensive ability even more evident, and completely exposed his fullback.
Not sure about Messi disappointing in the right, he started in the right and now moved to the center. He could be slightly more disappointing from the left. In the end, no matter where he is at he will always end up in the middle.
I guess I meant by comparison to his performances in the middle, lately he’s been looking somewhat subdued whenever he starts from the right.
Am surprised Park didn’t play instead of one of the wingers. He’s made for a game like this (kinda like Milner for City) as he’s shown season after season…
“the only time he played Fletcher and Anderson together, United lost 4-0 in the Carling Cup at West Ham”
Ferguson played them against Chelsea as well, which ended 3-1 for the Red Devils. United were pretty lucky though… Really happy to see them lose so heavily, even though I’m not a big City fan.
Finally, a level headed response to an over hyped result. As a United fan, I’ve been made to go hoarse mentioning the scoreline’s obvious inflation, so it’s a welcome relief to hear someone leave out the words “crisis” and “power-shift” in their analysis.
Thanks. It wasn’t really a 1-6 game, was it…
Continued fine analysis ZM! Keep up the exceptional work on this site.
Personally, I’m baffled that Fergie went with a 4-4-1-1 against both Barça and City whom both employ three central midfielders. In my view, and to be succinct, that formation is more often than not going to get over run in the centre of midfield. And especially against quality opposition. Fergie should have stuck to a 4-5-1 as he used to in all the big matches (v Arsenal of recent years past & UCL away matches). Two central MFs in a 4-4-2 v three central MFs in a 4-3-3 is setting your side up behind the veritable 8 ball before the match kicks off, in my opinion. As the old saying goes, in an overly simplistic sense, “If you control the middle of the park, you control the game.”
Pretty much agree with this!
City did not win the game by having 3v2 in midfield. The formations of both teams were fairly similar 4-4-1-1/4-2-3-1 with Rooney and Aguero playing mainly as second strikers. The biggest factor for me was the respective wide players. Young and Nani mainly kept their positions and were by and large nullified by Richards and Clichy. City on the other hand allowed Milner and Silva to roam and create 3v2 and 2v1 situations in the wide areas. Having said that, I do not think City were particularly brilliant. They were however very efficient and took advantage of some appalling defending from United (Evra in particular) to run up a large scoreline.
Was Fergie thinking that Rooney can become that third MF when he drops deep?
My feeling was that he use both wingers are the players to bring the ball up to the final third, Nani and Young. I dont recall that many build up from the center of the pitch. If Fergie goes 4-3-3 he needs all MFs to build in the center and provide to the forward line, which in truth like ZM and many has said, ManU lacks a Scholes kinda player to provide outlet.
Thanks for the analysis Michael.
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NOOOOOOOO :’(
But I have confidence we can pick ourselves up and still win the league this season!
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I understand that 1-6 thrashing of ManU is a big news and needs tactical analysis for sure. But there was another game Liverpool vs Norwich which went on very well. 1-1 draw for Norwich away from home was a very good result and this match is worth analyzing. Appreciate Zonalmarking work but somehow this match was missed probably because the spot light was on 1-6.
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If it’s shit why bother to come? You’re just giving me hits. The second part makes no sense.
Barcelona are probably the most-covered team on this site (at a guess). They’re probably the best side ever and Guardiola is one of the most fascinating managers ever.
The comment was because he was abusive – so why would I want to have gone to effort to write an article to please him? It’s nothing to do with whichever team he was talking about.
“Fanboy” is amusing considering every comment you leave is about one team! A quick check of your comments on the site shows you haven’t been enjoying it for a long time. Complaint, complaint, complaint. Why not go on the thousands of other internet football sites around. You obviously don’t like it, so don’t come!
Agree completely! If anything Modric is what they need
But what about a better defensive midfielder? Should SAF have played Jones there?
What’s your opinion on Fellaini actually – his contract is up for grabs, he’s only 23 (so fits with Utd’s transfer policy, unlike those nitwit reporters that should be fired for MAKING UP stories about Sneijder and Utd for the last year and a half). I am Belgian, so I am a bit biased though.
I’m a huge Spurs supporter, and I believe United needs a player just like Modric (not that I want to see him go, he’s pure class obviously and our best player); in terms of having a person who can sit in the center of the park and dictate the game. To me, Modric is the best central mid in the prem and the closest player in the world to Xavi Hernandez (in terms of position/role).
Regarding the struggles of Evra (who seems to be regarded as the EPL’s best Left back by many), what exactly do you think is the reason for his struggles and should MAN UTD replace him. Additionally, who do you think are the top 5 left sided fullbacks in England?
I would say (in order of 1 to 5)… 1)Ashley Cole 2)L Baines 3)Benoit Essou Ekkoto 4)Evra 5)Clichy
As always, this article is top notch, simply superb, keep up the great work on here.