Manchester United 8-2 Arsenal: Wenger’s heaviest defeat as Arsenal manager
The starting line-ups
An astonishing game ended with a resounding Manchester United victory.
Sir Alex Ferguson kept the side that defeated Tottenham on Monday, with Danny Welbeck continuing upfront.
Arsene Wenger was without Thomas Vermaelen and Bacary Sagna to add to various previous injury and suspension problems, so Carl Jenkinson played at right-back, and Johan Djourou in the centre. Francis Coquelin made his debut in the centre of midfield.
The match was a barely believable stream of United chances in an amazingly dominant display. Arsenal were wretched from start to finish, completely unable to make the most of their numerical midfield advantage, and remarkably disorganised at the back.
Defence
Where to begin? It’s difficult to look at an 8-2 and break it down into specific areas that went wrong. Arsenal were simply poorer in every possible attribute that goes into competing in a football match, and the logical continuation of this stream of thought is that Arsenal’s problems do not lie predominantly in tactical issues – there’s something deeper that must be addressed.
That’s not to say that there weren’t tactical problems, however. For a start, they lacked any kind of cohesiveness without the ball. Some of the side seemed to be pressing, some seemed to be standing off. Coquelin, thrown into such a huge game on his debut, played a relatively deep position and picked up Rooney. Bizarrely, despite Rooney claiming a hat-trick, Coquelin did reasonably well: Rooney’s impact upon the game in open play was relatively little in the first half, and all three of his goals came from set-piece situations. Wenger’s decision to remove Coquelin at 3-1 on 61 minutes (though possibly because of fitness reasons) backfired spectacularly.
That was the only thing that went OK for Arsenal. The problem with pressing meant that Arsenal frequently had no pressure on the ball in midfield – despite the fact that they could afford Coquelin sitting, because Aaron Ramsey and Tomas Rosicky could close down Anderson and Tom Cleverley. Somehow, and again arguably due to fitness reasons, this failed – Anderson and Cleverley got time on the ball and could hit passes over the top.
The secondary issue was with the high defensive line, which is suicidal enough when there is no pressure on the ball – but that almost becomes a pedantic point when the main issue was that the back four was incapable of moving as a unit. Two players would step up, two would drop back. Sometimes it was amazingly easy for United players to waltz through and score – the Nani goal being the best example. On other occasions a lone Arsenal player would become trapped behind the rest of his defence and be forced into a last-ditch tackle – Jenkinson collected both his bookings in this fashion.
United were frequently pleasing on the eye, and the quality of their finishing was consistently superb, but they didn’t even have to play particularly well. They passed the ball much better in the 3-0 win over Tottenham and in the 3-2 win over Manchester City. Some of the goals – the Park Ji-Sung shot, the Welbeck header – simply came as they had too much time and space on the ball. Rooney’s three goals came because Arsenal had conceded fouls by diving in. Young’s strikes were superb – yet if they’d been the only goals in a 2-0 win, we would have been here questioning why a right-footed player was allowed to come inside onto his stronger side so easily. Almost everything went wrong for Arsenal.
Basic errors
The most striking thing from the chalkboards is that even in the basic areas, the most primitive concepts in football, Arsenal were outclassed. United completed 64% of the tackles they attempted, Arsenal just 45%:
Another example – despite the ball spending most of the time on the edge of the Arsenal area, United managed to block six shots compared to Arsenal’s one:
Getting tackles in, getting blocks in – not sophisticated, not the Arsenal way and unlikely to be a deciding factor upon the game, but when your side can’t keep the ball, can’t keep an offside line and is letting the opposition play, these are the things you have to be halfway decent at. If not, you’re liable to concede eight goals.
Conclusion
Part of the issue, in simplistic terms, is that Arsenal didn’t have players who were fit to perform the tasks required. Some of this was because they lacked experience, some because they were simply the wrong players for the situation. Laurent Koscielny finished with a 100% pass completion ratio…yet kept getting caught too high up the pitch when defending. Carl Jenkinson was a force going forward and got an assist…yet didn’t make a single successful tackle. Ramsey and Rosicky are creators, not battlers. To use these type of players in the positions they played in, you must be in control of the game, and Arsenal were never close to that.
United continue their impressive start, though even they must have been surprised at how easy it was. Their 4-4-2 shape (with two strikers coming deep) provides forward runs from a lot of different angles, and with Nani and Ashley Young being able to go down the line or inside for a shot, they are very dangerous going forward.
Manchester United 8-2 Arsenal: Wenger’s heaviest defeat as Arsenal manager
I want to start a debate- Young or Downing.
Young for me.
Young, though Downing is not close behind. With this much talent is a wonder how England isnt doing much better internationally.
easy boys, wouldn’t call either world class
They are different types of players. I presume this has something to do with England. Young is right-footed. Downing is left-footed. Both are interestingly cross-shy, but both can pass and shoot. Young is better – but if England is the issue, then they might both play. Both are versatile.
messi is a huge fan of ashley young…
Yeah, but Pele was a big fan of Nicky Butt, and George Best said Paul Peschisolido could be one of the best strikers of his generation, so I wouldn’t read too much into that
List of England players used at left midfield in South Africa:
Milner
Wright-Philips
Gerrard
Is it still a mystery?
young is much better because of his all around qualities compared to stewart downings one dimensional playstyle (which he is great at. not saying he is bad).
Is there any question that Young is by far the better player?
I’d like to start a debate too – Andres Iniesta or Jimmy Bullard?
Bullard by a mile
At least with Bullard you could shower after the game without him staring at you, licking his lips, with all his other la masia ‘buddies’.
I find this is amusing
Young is much more talented than Downing, but Downing is more consistent.
I agree, Young is the player capable of more, Downing more reliable. Young also has more pace and is generally more of an individual threat then downing. Downing is a good premier league player as well, and maybe more. He is probably the more intelligent on the pitch, but if Young continues this form then the debate may be as silly as inesta v bullard!
Downing is incredibly underrated and is far better (and quicker) than most people think. Young is better on current performances, though.
Worst Arsenal defeat in 115 years. This team didn’t have any idea how to play together. Funny enough, how long has it been since Arsenal scored 2 goals at Old Trafford? While missing a penalty? The lack of defensive organisation and cohesion was incredible.
I remember saying last week that the Arsenal team starting today was going to be the weakest I had even seen and I wasn’t wrong. 4 red cards (counting Song) and 4 outfield starters on the pitch. This is by far the clearest indication that Arsenal lacks depth.
*weakest I had ever seen.
Wow.
Arsenal have a lot of work to do. Last season I said that they had arguably the best starting XI in the league, but a lack of quality throughout the squad (Diaby, Denilson, Eboue, Rosicky, Chamakh, Squilacci were all an injury or two away from starting and none of them are good enough – ironic as they were Arsenal’s more experienced players.) Now, not only have they gotten rid of some of the deadwood but their two best players – and failed to replace them with real quality players.
Arsenal now need at least one centre-back (not Jagielka or Gary Cahill or Chris Samba), a left-back, possibly a right back (or at least a utility defender who can cover the whole back four/play in midfield), a holding midfielder, a creative midfielder, at least one winger and a striker.
They have gone from being 3 or 4 excellent signings off of really, really challenging to needing pretty much a whole new squad. Arsene Wenger has ran out of ideas and now must surely leave. His failure to strenghten (even with the limited funds he’s had afforded to him) has now caught up and I don’t think he knows how to fix their problems. And, even if he does, I don’t think they can be fixed for at least another season or two.
No trophies in six years. Lost their last cup final to a team that ended up being relegated. Three Premier League wins since February.
Any other manager would be long gone.
but no other manager has gone a whole season unbeaten, or been more successful in the history of the club. so there’s your answer. don’t understand this no trophy in 6 years lark, seems like people have got it the wrong way round. given the financial climate he’s competing in, it should be hailed as a miracle if he were to win a trophy, not total failure if he doesn’t.
“but no other manager has gone a whole season unbeaten”
16-Sep-03 Arsenal 0-3 Inter (CL Group)
21-Oct-03 Dynamo Kyiv 2-1 Arsenal (CL Group)
20-Jan-04 Arsenal 0-1 Middlesbrough (League Cup Semi)
03-Feb-04 Middlesbrough 2-1 Arsenal (League Cup Semi)
03-Apr-04 Arsenal 0-1 Manchester United (FA Cup Semi)
06-Apr-04 Arsenal 1-2 Chelsea (CL QF)
I’ve always been torn between which I enjoyed more: the Gunners blowing a 1-0 lead at Highbury to get bounced from the Champions League, or Scholes knocking the Gunners out of the FA Cup semis. In four days, bye-bye Treble dreams.
that’s taking pedantic to new levels. obviously I meant a whole league season unbeaten, shame you couldn’t work that out for yourself.
and why reply to a post with what you’ve enjoyed, when it has nothing to do with said post? by the way, i’m torn between which i enjoyed more, my lunch or my dinner.
your comments do serve to illustrate my point though. football fans can be dim-witted, pathetic, and entirely lacking in any sense of self-awareness or perspective
“football fans can be dim-witted, pathetic, and entirely lacking in any sense of self-awareness or perspective” I think this is jdw’s point exactly.
i think its time Arsene Wenger should quit arsenal.
Apart from the 6-1 mauling of Arsenal by ManU in 2001 I have never ever seen an Arsene Wenger side so thoroughly dismantled. Yet, the most frightening aspect of the game from a Gunner’s fan point-of-view is that the side totally lacked heart, cohesion and convinction that they are on the same level as this ManU side. This is not yet a vintage United side and better teams (Barcelona, Man City, R. Madrid) will test their youth to the limit – plus, let’s not forget, the average age of the two sides was 23. However, and I think this is the big difference: have you seen Arsenal’s ’senior’ players taking a lead, making a stance, putting in a shift for the team? V. Persie to me seemed to have lost interest, Arshavin was a disgrace, Djorou, Koscelny like clowns… The only player with ‘balls’ in this team is their keeper.
Big question for Wenger: does anyone from the current crop of players at his disposal really care anymore? Is he the man to motivate them? And how on earth did an Udinese not beat them on Wednesday night?!
2 different teams between Wednesday and today. When did you ever see as weak an Arsenal team as this one take the field? Udinese were beaten by a much better team in midweek. If not for some spectacular goalkeeping from Udinese they would have been routed. Not as comprehensively as this Gunners team was though.
I think the average comparison is a key indicator of Arsenal’s issues. They have a lot of youth but they are inexperienced and their veterans provide little leadership. Compare that to United and even though they were a young team they all have premiership experience. Wenger is losing it while Ferguson just keeps getting stronger.
According to Twitter, V. Persie does care. He was the one who slammed at some of the older players (Chamak, Rosicky, etc) for heading straight down the tunnel after the game so they could go visit the away fans. Except for the fact that he is usually only fit for a little more than half the season, I think V. Persie can be a good captain.
city better than united? lmao
I’m pretty sure he meant better sides than Arsenal, not United. However, United’s youngsters passed that “test” with flying colours in the Community Shield, tearing City to shreds. Perhaps Mr. Schneider didn’t see that game, but here’s a gif to give him the general idea: http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/25soeo3.jpg.gif
The depth of of Wenger’s tactical naïveté is astounding, and this match proved it. A manager must organise his team according to logic of resources & opposition – Wenger’s level of ignorance and blind faith is being any understanding. In this match once again despite massive warning signs he chose to train stubbornly intact with his inflexible laurels – not pressing, not switching Walcott on left, reducing space between lines etc. He deserves this drubbing as a wake up to his tactical leakage.
to blame wenger for not using the players he had available to him better, is to completely miss the point – the players he had available were simply nowhere near good enough at this level.
for that, he is partially (perhaps largely) culpable. but let’s not make this about using walcott on the right instead of the left, or him telling his players not to press (if that’s what your intimating). this XI, absolutely knackered from CL qualifying, and with no quality on the bench, had 0% chance of a result regardless of tactics. a thrashing was just so predictable
Wengers fault because:
1. could have a bigger squad through spending money wiser (15mil on chamberlain could have bought 2 good centre backs if he is shrewd in the market – he isnt…having a bigger squad would give him more of a chance when players are unavailable like today
2. Tactics. Doesnt matter whos playing if your tactics are all wrong. Playing a high line vs man utd’s pace upfront – suicidal no matter whos in your back 4.
to a certain extent i agree with your point 1. but the signing of chamberlain is completely irrelevant as far as centre back signings are concerned, and arsenal have 4 centre backs, so it’s more a question of the quality/fitness of the squad than the size.
but as for point 2, i think it’s more a case of it didn’t matter what the tactics were, that team would have got thrashed. to play deep would have been equally suicidal with the players out there, and the horrendous mistakes being made and complete lack of organisation renders any tactical analysis obsolete
playing with a not so high line definitely wouldnt be suicidal. And chamberlain signing is totally relevant cos he could have spent that money on actual players that would have considerably improved the squad, as opposed to a young kid with experience in league 1, whos a winger (something which arsenal dont need to splash £15m on and thens sit him on the bench)
but signing chamberlain and signing centre backs aren’t mutually exclusive. Arsenal is in a good financial situation to begin with, and they have made a profit of more than 50m (not including wages) just from Nasri + Fabregas alone. you can blame Wenger for failing to move quickly enough at signing a defender, but that has absolutely nothing to do with signing Chamberlain.
plenty of the bottom feeding EPL clubs field teams with a similar gap in talent to what we saw today, but rarely do you see them completely gutted like Arsenal were. Most of the time they play with heart and smarts and in the end are just outclassed by the better clubs. That’s not what we saw this afternoon. Whether it was the tactics or the lack of leadership from the back with Verm out or a combination, it falls on the gaffer for letting it come to a head like this.
I think Wenger and, to a lesser extent, the ’spurs deserved the trashings they got today for not taking care of their business prior to the start of the season. They can both cry about injuries and transfers all they want but that shit just happens, prepare for it. the fans of Arsenal and Tottenham are still waiting for their clubs to start the season. Too bad for them the other clubs started 3 weeks ago.
The depth of of Wenger’s tactical naïveté is astounding, and this match proved it. A manager must organise his team according to logic of resources & opposition – Wenger’s level of ignorance and blind faith is beyond any understanding. In this match once again despite massive warning signs he chose to train stubbornly intact with his inflexible laurels – not pressing, not switching Walcott on left, reducing space between lines etc. He deserves this drubbing as a wake up to his tactical leakage.
Arsenal’s 4-3-3 system looks terrible, and the defence is a complete joke.
We all know that Squillaci and Djourou are totally useless – but Vermaelen is also injury prone and Koscielny is overrated. (Apparently he cost about 10 million.) Wenger needs to admit to himself that these players are not good enough by themselves.
Playing 4-3-3 needs a good defence, and it needs wide players who can actually play there, and a centre-forward who has some strength. Van Persie is a second striker. I have heard plenty of stuff about the ‘false 9′ – but this player needs to be strong. Like Messi.
Walcott is a striker playing on the wing who cannot cross or pass. If Arshavin is a winger, then I am Paul Daniels.
I have heard people saying that Arsenal need a midfield player. Really? They have Song, Wilshere, Ramsey, Diaby, Frimpong, Rosicky, etc etc …. the last thing they need is another central player.
If I were him, I would play 4-4-2, play Van Persie as a second striker, and buy a Premiership centre-half and left-back.
Van Persie is undoubtedly good enough to play as a false nine. His qualities are tailor-made for that role. The problem is that when he drops deep there’s not much movement beyond him. Fabregas (creative ability aside) will be hugely missed in that regard.
Walcott has improved as a winger, but Arsenal really need cover in that area. Arshavin has lot that spark, as has Rosicky. I’m not convinced by Gervinho.
I think they really do need another central midfielder. They lost Denilson, Diaby, Fabregas and Nasri (who played a lot in the centre, despite being used on the left when everyone was fit) without replacing them. Ramsey, Wilshere and Song are all good players, but if one is injured then they don’t have anyone of that quality who can step in.
Yes, maybe Wenger needs to get another “tackler” in case Song is injured. Song and Wilshere is a good pairing, so Parker would be an ideal buy, and he wouldn’t break the bank.
I don’t think that Song has progressed in the way that he might have. I seem to remember that he started out as a centreback that Wenger looked to convert to a defensive midfielder. But he seems to me positionally undisciplined, playing far too high up the pitch. Whether that’s the way Wenger wants him to play, or just his instinct, it’s no good for the team, which, since February this year, has been frequently exposed by leaving space in front of the back four.
There are several Arsenal players for which it’s becoming p1ss or get off the pot time, and Song is one. He either has to become a top class player, or not, and if not, Wenger needs to grasp the nettle and find someone who is.
The other problem with Song is that he doesn’t have that steely determination or drive that other defensive midfielders offer their team. That’s my view, but I think the first point I made, on positional and tactical indiscipline, is objective reality.
Who was the strong defensive midfielder for Man Utd on that Sunday against United. I thought I saw Anderson and Cleverly charging forward and backwards, holding and passing, destroying and intercepting; but none really stood in front of the “back 4″ as some kind of steely midfielder.
Maybe Song (and Wenger who asks him to venture forward) isn’t so bad as it may seem. It may well be that, it’s the whole Arsenal side that has to show drive and determination in addition to the technique and ability that they have in loads.
Arteta is now part of the mix. Maybe he’s got the steel, drive and positional sense you so crave @Carbo
A 4-3-3 needs a centre-forward who has some strength? I think some of the best 4-3-3’s have came from quite the opposite. Messi, but surely thats too obvious. Ronaldo and Tevez did very well for United in a 4-5-1/4-3-3 without using physical strength at all. Gudjohnson for Chelsea, even Eto’o for Barca.
I don’t think strength is needed at all to play up front by yourself. Movement and interchange from the midfielders and wingers around the lone forward are the most crucial aspect and what is lacking from this side. There is nothing wrong with a straight forward direct winger, as that is exactly what Bale is (not comparing Bale to Walcott don’t worry) but playing both Walcott/Arsharvin who stay wide and don’t interchange or get behind the false 9 calls for disaster.
And would love to know which premiership centreback they should buy?
agree that a succesful 4-3-3 doesnt necesarily need the striker to be strong.
Arsenal could have bought:
R.Johnson (free transfer)
G.Cahill £18m (chamberlain money + £3m)
S.Dann – would easily tempt b’ham at £10m
Samba at £15m
So, if you take the chamberlain transfer money (£15m) potentially Arsenal could have bought R.Johnson, Samba and G.Cahill if you add an extra £10m, which isn’t asking a lot + they probably don’t need 3 CB’S, so thats more than enough.
Sure, but not one of those players is good enough to be more than a third centreback at best for a club challenging for the top four. Neither is Scott Parker or any other player that the British media is throwing around as a signing that would bring “commitment” to Arsenal. And Cahill for £18 is crazy: he’s in the last year of his contract and looked out of his depth the other morning at Liverpool. Arsenal’s problems run deeper at the moment and short-term solutions won’t fix the underlying problem that Arsenal simply can’t pay the wages that the other top clubs in the world are able to do and therefore the club is unable to attract the top-class players showing up in numbers at City, Barca, Utd, etc.
Good point what is the point of spedning huge on the likes of Cahill, Samba or Dunn if neither will ever be as good as Vermaleen or Koscieny. Yes they need another CB for cover but their is no point overpaying for mediocrity. The question is why didn’t they try to sign someone like Sebastion Coates(it looks like Liverpool are about to sign him). Also if they didn’t lose out to United for Smalling or Jones they would have much less of a problem right now.
Surely a joke? Cahill/R.Johnson/Dann are much better than any arsenal centre back and are all worthy of being some of the best CB’s in the league. Especially should have been signed from an arsenal perspective as Dann/Johnson put in an inspired performance vs arsenal in the carling cup last season.
Not a joke. Why is playing well for a mid/low-tier club pried by so many of the British media/fans? (Sorry, I assume you’re British simply because that’s the only reason I could imagine you advocating that Cahill, Samba, and Dann are some of the best CBs in the league.) Not a single one would start for a top six club and only Arsenal, Liverpool, and Spurs would even consider bringing one of them in for cover in case their back line was hit by injuries. You can make an argument that Arsenal’s centrebacks are not good enough, and I will be right beside you preaching that message, but claiming any one of those three is the answer is ludicrous. Arsenal’s issues are systemic at the moment and short-term solutions are just that. There’s a bigger problem they need to look at first.
Monty: is your solution to Arsenal’s defensive problems really a 20 year old player who has never played in a European league and whose experience in high pressure football is 6 games in the Copa America (half of them against terrible teams)?
stephan: I’m sure that Cahill and Jagielka would improve Man Utd / Chelsea / Man City’s squads too, it’s just that they aren’t good value for money. Man Utd needed younger defenders simply because they already have Vidic + Ferdinand – but it’s not like Jones, Smalling, or Evans are better *at present* than Cahill or Jagielka. similarly, at Chelsea, both of those players would compete for a starting spot alongside Terry, and at Man City, I think they’re at the same level as Lescott and Toure.
When looking at the best three centrebacks in the Premiership at the moment when fit, would most definitely be Vidic/Kompany and there is a good argument for Vermaelen. Those three had European pedigree in their small markets, and were purchased at reasonably good prices. I don’t see why one would even consider buying an English CB. Ferdinand/Terry well passed it, Jones/Smalling have promise but don’t think are worth what they paid as of now (maybe in a few seasons). I agree that Arsenal need a CB but the idea of buying overpriced, greatly undertalented English players is a terrible idea. Johnson/Dann were a partnership for a relegated team (although Dann injured) and specialize in ‘backs to the wall’ type defending, sitting deep and hacking balls away and i don’t think that would fit into Arsenals system. Jan Vertonghen from Ajax would be near perfect for their problems, young but still experienced, in Europe as well. Can play CB/LB/DM comfortably but being Ajax’s captian and everyone knowing that Arsenal have cash to spend and pressure to spend it, no doubt they would hold Arsenal to ransom.
Agree with Stephan that Arsenals problems run deeper. Fans want world class signings, but say if Arsenal were to sign world class LB, high wages and would have to play week in week out if fit. That would kill the progress of Gibbs, who would probably ask to be sold because at his age and with him ambitions needs to be playing every week (when not on the medical table) but that would then tilt the cycle that Arsneal has (which i don’t think is exactly the wrong idea, just at a really bad point right now). If the progress of young players would be hampered, then young players like Ramsey/Fabregas and other young stars of the future wouldn’t come to Arsenal or the ones that are here would want to leave. So it is a vicious cycle really.
And Speedy, i agree that they are all very strong players who are powerful in their movements, but i wouldn’t call them physically imposing. As say a Drogba, K.Jones, Carew, Davies lone front man is physically imposing using strength. And that is the way that i interpreted what you said.
Some of this talk about defenders at lower-level PL clubs being overrated and inferior to the likes of Vermaelen and Koscielny is outrageous.
Phil Jones and Chris Smalling were defenders at lower-level PL clubs. So were Rio Ferdinand and Sol Campbell. What is this bashing of English defenders all about? They can’t be good enough for Arsenal because they’re English? Come on, this is just ridiculous.
I think Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo are very strong players. You don’t get much stronger then Tevez, and Rooney can certainly look after himself (although I think he is a ‘number 10′). Just because Ronaldo falls over a lot doesn’t mean he isn’t strong. He could easily play as a lone centre-forward.
I just have the image that Van Persie and Adebayor was almost the perfect forward line. Maybe it is just me!
Wenger could have (still could, actually) bought Per Mertesacker from Werder Bremen. Remember, German CB playing the last two WCs and the last EC. Not world-class, but quite good, amongst Bundesliga top5, about. Mertesacker was actually interested. But Wenger said something like “We already ave four centrebacks, we don’t need anozzer one”. 10-15 millions, probably.
I don’t think Coates would be an immediate fix but, he could possibly be a long term fix(like Jones or Smalling would).
well, he’s wrong about that one isn’t he – they DEFINITELY need another Centre-Back……
Finally, Arsenal contracted Mertesacker today. Sounds good. Wenger came to senses – or could not stand the complaints on this site anymore
Today Chicharito had the chance to score again but he didn’t. 8 goals for United today, but none for the central forward. Is this something United fans should worry about? What can we spect from Hernandez this season?
Welbeck scored. I don’t think United fans need to worry about their strikers at the moment. lol
Its his first game back, one of Hernandez’s best attributes is his ability to create space for others through genius off ball runs . I wouldnt be worried.
Agree with saf. He had a couple of ABC runs that opened up space in the middle to move into. He also looked better with the ball, the one-two with Cleverley was nice.
It seemed like everything was wrong today. Among other things I think we played way too ambitiously, when we should have played deep and played on the counter-attack. In line with that thinking, I think we should have played two pacey wingers. It seems like Ryo might not have been available, so I would have started Chamberlain instead of Arshavin. Arshavin was a double liability, since he is terrible in defense, and is constantly losing possession cheaply.
This team desperately needs quality. All the other top teams have been spending huge money and strengthened their sides this summer. We can’t keep up with them, especially if we are not willing to pay top wages. We are lacking quality in just about every department, and to take 4th place, only some proper world world class will do. The league is so competitive now, that Wenger won’t get away with his cheapness anymore.
Spurs played two pacey wingers against City. Look how that turned out. I don’t understand how quickness out wide could have solved the problem of an awful offside line and no cohesion in midfield. Arsenal’s midfield trio were about as successful as Mascherano by himself against Germany.
Well, it would perhaps be more precise to call them wing forwards instead of wingers. I am certainly not arguing for traditional wingers here. There are several reasons why Spurs wasn’t effective. For a start they played with the notoriously slow Crouch up front. Van Persie is of a different class altogether. Also City played with two holding midfielders protecting their back four.
I think it would be worth a shot trying the counter-attacking approach against United today (playing deep and compact), especially given our weak squad (we played in a suicidal fashion). That would have meant much better support for the back four as well, of course, and less space behind our defense for United to exploit. As for Arshavin, I think one could argue he shouldn’t have been in the team today, just based on the fact he is such a defensive liability.
And if you don’t see how pace can be effective, just look at Theo.
I’m sure you’ve seen the chalkboard but I think De Gea’s passing is of particular interest. His passing rate was 72%, impressive for a keeper, but the chalkboard also showed that he only attempted 6 long passes into Arsenal’s half, only completing one of those six. I like his emphasis on shorter passing and think it contributes well to the build-up of United, much like how Valdes starts moves at Barca. Exciting to see a potentially great sweeper keeper like him in the EPL.
His distribution is already great which is the most important thing for a counter attacking team like United.
He still needs to work on commanding his box but he’s definitely at the right team with his attacking abilities. United doesn’t have a big forward to hoof the ball up to and DDG’s passes to the wingers were impressively accurate.
My location here on the East coast of the US put pay to any chance of me watching the game, but thanks ZM for anothers superb analysis.
Today really does epitomize the changing tides in English football – no longer are Arsenal substantial challengers, both City and United are miles ahead of them in all departments.
Is Wenger the most overrated manager in the history of football?
The man is unbelievably incompetent. Some say the board has his hands tied, but did they force him to give big contracts to trash like diaby and bendtner? He’s a financial genius, the myth goes. Did they force him to keep them? For a man that supposedly has an eye for talent, there’s an incredible number of dross in his squad, all over payed too. kieran gibbs is plain awful, nevermind him never being fit enough, so why not get a left back? Enrique was sold for approximatley the same amount clichy was, no excuse. he knew cesc was going out, and possibly nasri, for a long time, yet didnt do antything all summer.
Forget this summer, how about the one before, where vermaelen (also overrated) was the only decent center backs, he goes and buys somebody who spent the majority of his time playing in the french second division. and no goalkeeper. And a twenty something striker (chamkh) that nobody wanted on a free transfer. I could go on and on and on.
The man got lucky, cesc carred the team and now he’s gone. Van Persie is not world class – see how sanchez carried udinese, how suarez is the entire thrust of the liverpool attack, see how those truly world class players influence a team and look at van persie. he broke a record last season scoring goals, most in successive away matches, but never dominated ANY of those games, never made anybody go after the game and marvel at a master class of 90 minutes. Arshavin is busted, so is rosicky, walcott would be on 5k a week in some second division league if he wasn’t english, ramsey and wilshere don’t nearly have the same class and cesc, who knows if they’ll get to his level at all, let alone soon. the defence is a joke. It does seem that he has a goalkeeper now though, hooray! He actually only let him play because of injuries to almunia and fabianski, but now wants to take credit for ‘discovering’ him. YOu buy kids by the dozens and a few will turn out good, wenger should get absolutely no credit for the few that do. Cesc would still have been a world class player if he stayed at barcelona, wenger can’t create talent – look at denilson, walcott, fabianski, koscielny, djourou, etc…
The reality is that most of the positives on wenger are just myths. His wage bill in near 120 million, and he brags about finishing consistently in the top 4? yeah, easy when fifth place is more like half your wage bill. And spurs with a striker and keeper would still have likely beaten arsenal to fourth place last season. The man is lucky others in this business are just as incompetent as he says.
What a sick world. People suffering, can’t find jobs, slave away for a little bit of money to get by, and people like wenger make millions per YEAR, and would have to get paid millions if he were fired (the reason he’s not quitting himself) because these contracts are written by other over payed morons who have similar corrupt deals. Meanwhile half his players don’t bother showing up most season and get payed what others make in a year in a week. Disgusting.
1. Only CBs in the Premier League better than Vermaleen is Vidic, Kompany and a fit Ferdinand(which I realize is rare these days)
2. Before joining Arsenal Chamakh was the first person to ever score in six consecutive champions league games.
And overall while Wenger and the board of Arsenal made plenty of mistakes your criticism was completely over the top and that last paragraph was completely irrelevant and has no reason to be on a site like this.
So your saying vermaelan is better than terry and Alex hahahahaha
Vermaelen is absolutely better than Terry and Alex. Terry has lost a lot, only the fact the refs still let him cheat keeps him playing. Alex is good, but no better than Verm. No CBs in the league have a harder task than Arsenal’s, because Arsenal’s midfield hasn’t figured out how to defend as well as attack.
Zonal Marking missed the point today. Arsenal’s midfield gave the defense no help whatsoever. The 2nd biggest problems was Jenkinson kept getting lost out of position when he tried to press forward (which he hadn’t done much of before today). But it’s impossible for a defense not to be a shambles when they get left exposed like that, and either Kos or Djourou should have been getting the midfield and fullbacks in line.
The tactics today were far too aggressive for the personnel, and Rosicky and Ramsey left the defense out to dry. Before Coquelin came off, only Man U’s exceptional finishing had them in front. Arsenal had some great chances they had missed, and the total shots/shots on target were pretty equal… once Coquelin left, Arsenal’s defense had no chance, and the result got crazy.
Far from being completely outclassed, Arsenal’s Reserve team were in it for quite a while, but the tactics were a complete failure. The CB’s should have set the midfield and fullbacks straight, and the fullbacks should have pulled tighter and sat further back. Especially Jenkinson, who even Walcott could see was being far too agressive for the situation.
yeah, I think you have it spot on. as much as ZM portrayed it as a universally bad performance, that wasn’t really the case during the first 60 minutes. a 3-1 Man Utd lead at Old Trafford is hardly an unprecedented thing – just remember how dominant they were during that CL semi-final second leg two years ago.
it’s true, the extent of the rout was largely Wenger’s fault – but I think it was due to his naivety in making such an offensive substitution, bringing on Chamberlain for Coquelin. regardless of fitness issues or whatever, I think if he’d made a more wise choice and gone with Chamakh for Arshavin, move RVP in the hole and Rosicky out wide, go 4-2-3-1 with Ramsey + Coquelin holding, it wouldn’t have been so bad. even 4-2 or 5-3 or something like that wouldn’t have been a terrible result in these circumstances.
The arsenal CB’s cause their own downfall constantly making mistakes. If Terry or Alex makes a mistake it is almost shocking, if any of the arsenal back 4 or vermaelan does its expected…Vermaelan makes as many mistakes as the other arse defenders, their just more positional/decision – orientated mistakes and so dont get noticed as easily. Vermaelan over terry and alex hahahahahaha
Give me Phil Jones, Chris Smalling, John Terry, Jamie Carragher, or Samba over Vermaelen any Sunday. And the point about Chamakh simply proves Wenger got it wrong. He did not see that something about Chamakh would not allow him to thrive in the PL as he had done in the UCL.
Surely not…
What exactly have Chris Smalling or Phil Jones done to make you form any judgement of them at all, let alone one that would place them above a solid centre back like Vermaelen?
Apart, that is, from signing for big money for Man Utd.
It seems that players can be utterly anonymous and then get plaudits and England call ups simply by virtue of having Alex Ferguson hand over bucket loads of cash for them.
Fair enough, both might develop into top quality centre backs; however, I watch a fair amount of football, and recall seeing Jones once before he signed for Man Utd and Smalling never. I therefore have no opinion of them, except that Smalling looked dodgy last season at centre back in the few games he played, and Jones didn’t look so very good yesterday. But it’s too early to tell.
As it should be for you.
If you’re a Fulham or Blackburn season ticket holder, then I perhaps you have a basis from which to make a judgement; if not, I don’t see how you can.
And John Terry? Please. The most overrated centre back I can remember — not least by himself.
I don’t agree with you about Smalling and Jones – Smalling played more than a few games at Centre-Back last season (Ferdinand was out for large parts – probably half – of the season), and looked good in most of the games he played (ok, the games he didn’t look good in were when he wasn’t playing next to Vidic, who was basically guiding him through each game, which shows that he isn’t the finished article yet). Jones, I thought, looked very good yesterday and has looked very good since he came to Man Utd, AND looked very good for Blackburn last season (and for the England under-21s in the summer).
@Truthandinsight
As I say, I haven’t seen enough of them to form an opinion. They MIGHT develop into quality centre backs, but who knows? I saw Smalling on several occasions last season, and for me the definition of a good centre back isn’t someone who does pretty well only when playing next to someone who’s so good that they can cover for his mistakes and hold his hand through the game.
Carbo, couldn’t agree with you more. Smalling/Jones may end up being very good premier league defenders, but at the moment i don’t see them being that spectacular, rather playing in a team who defends well and is the best ‘team’ in the league (not best squad of players, but team). Its like Johnny Evans who wasn’t signed in big fee but was given so much praise at the start of his career but it just took some time for him to actually be found out in that strong United defense and now, although young, looks flawed. Time will tell i guess.
As much as this is a bit of a rambling rant, I found myself nodding my head at almost every point.
hey, where were those people last season saying they’d take djourou and koscielny over rio and vidic?
I remember some here were citing a string of clean sheets as proof of their superiority? Funny how statistics can make awful players look class. Take those castroll rankings that had (maybe still do) lampard over iniesta and xavi because he scored/assisted more. LOL.
it wasn’t just the statistics though. until the Carling Cup final or so, Djourou was having an outstanding season – even the UK media, who love the “Arsenal’s leaky defense” storyline, were praising his performances. since then, he has completely fallen apart. it’s not just the end-of-season collapse, but also his terrible performance in the friendly against England, and his uncertainty even during the preseason friendlies…
as for Koscielny – he really seems to play up (or down) to the level of his defensive partner, regardless of who it is. when his partner is playing well, it can lead to outstanding performances (eg. 1-0 against Man Utd, 2-1 against Barcelona, 0-0 against Newcastle this season). when his partner is playing badly, it leads to horrifically bad performances (eg. 4-4 against Newcastle, and this game of course). I don’t know what the reason for this is – he seems like a pretty mentally tough guy, if not a leader of any type. but nonetheless, if he were able to play a full season partnered with a relatively consistent, commanding defender, like Vidic, Vermaelen, or even Jagielka, I think he would be one of the best defenders in the league. you can call me crazy or whatever you’d like, and it’s true, I am a biased Arsenal fan – but I’ve seen some good defenders play for this club too, like Toure, Gallas, Campbell… and Koscielny, at his best, can match up with any of them in defensive talent.
I think Djourou has talent. He could develop into a good centre back if he’s given, say, 20 games a season, as back up, in an already solid back four, for a few seasons.
But the rest yesterday were, and are, a shower.
But it’s worse than that. Even a bunch of no-hopers and kids should be able to do the basic stuff that makes a back four work: step up as a unit, pass players on at the correct moment, make sure only one centre back at a time steps up to press the ball, so one can come around on the cover, move round together to cover advancing full backs, step up as a unit for offside, not allow gaps big enough for Jupiter to pass though to consistently open, etc.
And yet they couldn’t. That shows either an appalling training regime, a hopeless lack of aptitude, or a pathetic lack of concentration. Whichever it is (and I suspect a combination of all three, but that the first is definitely a factor given the first-stringers’ similar problems), it’s not good for Arsenal.
Djourou has all the physical ability to be a top centreback, but unfortunately, none of the mental attributes needed. Granted, it doesn’t help that he’s been taught at the modern incarnation of Arsenal.
I think you’re right on both counts, but on the second point, that you’re right makes you wrong — if that makes any sense whatsoever. Djourou makes mistakes, but he’s playing against dross. The Great John Terry makes mistakes all the time when he’s not playing alongside Gallas, Carvalho or Alex, and yet he’s still The Unimpeachable John Terry.
Like I say, for defenders, the mental side of the game — the ability to concentrate, to spot danger, positional awareness, etc — can improve with time. He’s still young, and if he was back up, getting, say, 20 games a season for three or four seasons in an established and reasonably sold back line, with some decent leaders there, he could, by the age of 26 or 27 be a quality centre back.
Whether he will or not is another matter.
Certainly, if the current crop of Arsenal players are the standard, he’ll not fulfull his potential. Cliche, Song, Rosicky, Bendtner, Arshavin, Gibbs, Chamakh and more are (were in Cliche’s case) either worse, or had clearly not progressed, since breaking into the Arsenal team or signing for the club.
Yes, you are correct about Djourou, he COULD develop into a good Centre-Half, but the point that all the fans and the media is making is that you shouldn’t go to Old Trafford and pick players who are not the finished article in their roles and positions – if you do then you will ship 8 goals and the players will look as under-developed as you actually are. – the main point that everyone is making (again, fans and media) is that why has Wenger allowed himself to get into the situation where he is picking players who are not the finished article? – does he have the money available to buy better quality players so that they defend better at Old Trafford and not let in 8? Yes, he does, so why hasn’t he done it? or does he think that the players he has got ARE good enough to go to Old Trafford and defend well and not let in 8? if he does then he is clearly wrong and he has a problem with his judgement of quality and ability….
…..that is why everyone is calling for Wengers head – because everyone has seen this coming for two years now, namely that his squad players are simply not good enough to compete at the top level of football…..
song has progressed immensely and expecting Arshavin to improve is idiotic. Everybody knew he was bought at/slightly past his peak. He is 30… Chamakh needs more time to be judged and gibbs and Bendtner need more consisten playing time. Rosicky looks promising as a deep lying playmaker.
@ Mezzala.
Song has progressed immensely? Really? That’s why Arsenal’s back four look so exposed? That’s why they have little bite or drive in midfield? One of the things that everyone knows and says is that Arsenal need a defensive midfielder. That’s because Song hasn’t developed into a quality one.
Meantime, I don’t expect Arshavin to improve, but I don’t see why he can’t play as he did when he first went to Arsenal. But he’s gone back over, and that’s the point.
Chamakh looks like a busted flush to me. I fail to see what he adds to a team — but can see plenty of things that he subtracts from one.
This was just a shocking performance. Probably the main reason was a complete lack of confidence throughout the arsenal team, while man u’s was sky high. But dissecting the team, i actually think the partnership of djourou and kol is a good one, they suit eachover well, but both individually had really poor games. Kol was caught up the pitch far too much and this was exploited very well. While djourou stayed too deep, constantly failing with the offside line and keeping players on, both were at fault for goals and this showed. Playing the inexperienced jenkinson at RB was a major mistake too as he was exposed badly, with poor positioning and constantly losing one on ones.I blame this on wenger who choose to sign a RB with no top flight experince as cover for sagna, this was surely gonna lead to a poor result. Traore is a good LB but didnt look sharp and just got back from injury.
The midfield was also poor. Giving a debut to a youngster in this type of game, just screams crazy. Though he did have a good game marking rooney, this effectively meant he was never in space to help arsenal keep possession, and his passing was poor out from the back,though was wasnt give many options. Ramsey wasnt physical enough in midfield, he didnt break up the attacks and press the man u midfielders. Rosicky didnt provide the link from midfield to attack, failed to take up good positions and didnt provide enough creativity. A far cry from fab or nasri. The attack actually looked up to scratch, walcott looked dangerous when given the chance (so rare), arshavin looked to be able to capitalise on the lack of defensive awareness by cleverly and the lack of experience at RB for smalling. And Van Persie produced good movement, but with hardly any possession or runners from midfield, this was wasted.
Not the true arsenal, but shows a massive lack of depth in the team and a fundamental weakness in the mental strength of the team, to just give up like they did.
It was freak one off-game but one thingy is sure that Arsenal second string players are not acceptable level which is shown at last season.
Utd have plenty of reserve veteran players who can called upon. Team is very flexible. Probably, one of most thickest squad team in current football world.
Arsenal could do with one or two players within remaining transfer window.
This match was disgusting from arsenal perspective.
I think it is about time Arsenal resorted to a more counter attacking based system, even when. The type of players AW has been getting lately all seem to have bags of pace. Possession just isn’t working.
I think eboue shouldnt have been sold this season, jenkison should have been loaned, you cant excpect that kid to replace one of/if not the best right back in epl. Im not that bothered with Traore, he did okay.AW should consider him playing on higher up one day.
I think walcott was a positive today, he certainly missed sagna playing behind him. I predict more goals for walcott this season.
But they are so many questions surrounding Arsenal, any new signings? changes in philosiphy?
Personally i think they should model some of their game on bvb last season.
Now onto Man U, they have a good system going. Ferdinand,Carrick, fletcher, old giggs, maybe even rafel(smalling really is pushing him out) and most especially berbatov. Will want some playing time. most of these guys are better as individuals, makes you question how they will fit in. I know SAF has a plan but i gurantee they wont bring the chemistry and energy this current group of players have.
Manchester derby is looking really interesting now.
May 28, 2011 Utd v Barca – VDS, Fabio, Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Valencia, Carrick, Giggs, Park, Rooney, Hernandez.
Aug 28, 2011 Utd v Arsenal – De Gea, Smalling, Jones, Evans, Evra, Nani, Cleverly, Anderson, Young, Rooney, Wellbeck.
Hasn’t taken long for SAF to respond to Wembley lesson. Nine different starters.
Compared to:
Feb 16, 2011 Arsenal v Barcelona (1st leg) (won 2-1) – Szczesny, Koscielny, Clichy, Djourou, Fabregas, Song (Arshavin, 69), Walcott (Bendtner, 77), Nasri, Eboué, Wilshere, van Persie
Aug 28, 2011 Arsenal v Utd – Szczesny, Traore, Koscielny, Jenkinson, Djourou, Arshavin, Coquelin, Walcott, Rosicky, Ramsey, van Persie
Six different starters but none able to do the job for injured Song & Wilshere and departees Clichy, Nasri and Fabregas (and even Eboué).
The debate is not tactics, it’s differences in approach and capability to squad planning & rejuvenation. Wenger has not become a poor tactician since Feb.
The extreme number of new starters for ManU is bumped up just a bit due to the injuries of Vidic, Rio and Hernandez.
Smalling starting is partially due to the twins repeated injuries, moving him out there to try some coverage. It worked to a degree, and SAF stuck with it.
It’s also hard to call Nani a “new” starter since he’s been a regular starter for several years.
Cleaverly isn’t a reaction to Wembley in May. He was a reaction to Wembley in August. It worked, and SAF stuck with it.
Really the only two “planned” new starters today going into the season were Young and DeGea and Anderson (if he performed well early). If everyone started the season healthy, and the second half at Wembley in August had not gone the way it did, we likely would have seen:
DeGea
Rafey-Rio-Vidic-Evra
Nani-Carrick-Anderson-Young
Rooney
Hernandez
The injuries on a level have been good for ManU. It gave them a chance to bleed some players in games against alleged Top 6 clubs. Evans continues to look shakey, so he’s likely to quickly slip down to #5 in the CB rotation behind Vidic, Rio, Smalling and Jones. The injuries to the Twins has led SAF to get coverage on the right out of an player already on the roster, and expand the ways inwhich to get Smalling into the rotation. Valencia’s injury helped get rid of what had been a ridiculous media meme: “How does Nani fit into the team.” And Hernandez’s injury opened the door for Welbeck to get playing time.
Hate to see Welbeck go down, but they only have five games hile he’s out that he would likely play in, so this simply gives Hernendez the opportunity to get back into games, along with Berba some playing time.
The following 7 from the Wembley Starting XI were all available to start against Arsenal yesterday – Fabio, Ferdinand, Giggs, Carrick, Park, Hernandez and even Valencia (in full training).
So out of the 9 (VDS and Vidic unavailable) Wembley starters, SAF only chose 2 (Rooney & Evra). He didn’t even settle for more experienced lower risk calls in Berbatov and Fletcher.
That’s the difference in squad planning and rejuvenation capability between SAF and Wenger. The 8-2 is not a tactical issue, it’s a football management issue.
(I’m certain that the Kroenke Usminov boardroom issues at AFC are a constraint to Wenger, but equally the fact that the Glazer issues at MUFC haven’t been a constraint suggests that SAF may also have stronger capability in board management then AW.)
Almost all of those guys were coming back from an injury.
I agree with you about Evans – he doesn’t look a great defender – he makes rash challenges (the penalty was an awful attempt at stopping Walcott) and I think we’ll see him slowly fazed out of the pecking order in Man Utd’s defence over time….
That seems to be his only fault these days. Much prefer that to him being ooutmuscled and dominated like last season. His form is much better this season and against Arsenal he was commanding the defence and mopping up well. Yes Jonny Evans. Didn’t help having to play on the side of the out of form Evra though.
In my 12 years of watching United play, never have I seen a performance like this. This far surpasses the Beckham-van Nistelrooy and the Ronaldo-Tevez-Rooney eras IMO.
The difference between last season and this season is remarkable and not only because of new faces. Even the old faces have taken on a new vigour and dynamic. I had the feeling that even Chicharito was having problems adjusting but that’s probably due to his return from injury more than anything else. Also, now that Berbatov has less pressure on him, he can play with a more relaxed state of mind. Anderson, Evra, Evans (more or less), seem to have improved leaps and bounds over the last campaign.
If Ferguson knew last season what kind of talent he had and an idea of what he was going to do this season, I can imagine his frustration at the pedestrian play caused by Gibson/Carrick/O’Shea etc. Whenever I have been critical of Ferguson, he has always emerged as right in the end. I don’t think I’ll be able to get myself to criticize him ever again (except for selling Beckham of course, that still rankles
)
It’s a real joy to watch this group play, and the only way I see Chelsea getting something from United is if Martin Atkinson saves their bacon … again.
Fantastic piece, i think one of the most glaring tactical errors in this game was playing Arshavin in a position that required him to fall back and mark Smalling. obviously he wasn’t interested and Smalling often played as an extra midfielder. i read this guy’s analysis- good stuff; http://www.theirtactics.com
well, it’s not just Arshavin – it’s the Arshavin / Traore partnership. Traore is a mediocre defender at his best, but when he’s half-fit and clearly not mentally in the game… I think if it had been Sagna or Gibbs at left back, they could’ve dealt with it just fine. you have to remember, Arshavin has played in many big games, against wing partnerships more potent than Nani + Smalling, and it’s not as though Arsenal collapsed defensively in every single one of them.
also, Wenger does usually play a defensive winger (Eboue or Rosicky in last season’s squad) and go to a more counter-attacking style in games like this. I thought the first leg victory over Barcelona was a perfect example of pragmatic, counter-attacking football. it’s not as though Wenger is some kind of naive idiot who is completely wedded to playing all-out attack no matter the situation.
agreed David, the main issues just weren’t tactical.
however, before i knew sagna and vermaelen couldn’t play, i was praying traore would start in advance of sagna on the left, with arshavin providing some quality on the bench. or even rosicky could have played wide, with arshavin central, somewhere around RVP.
my question is, had sagna been fit, do you think wenger would have considered that? my concern is that he wouldn’t, and arshavin would have started wide left anyway. i disagree with you that it works fine with arshavin there in big games, especially away from home. whether he’s in front of gibbs or sagna or clichy, he’s an unmitigated disaster defensively, offering next to no help whatsoever.
so although it wasn’t really relevant to this game, i think wenger’s tactical stubbornness, rather than naivety is an issue. he wants to play the 4-3-3, and is determined to have arshavin on the left of that three, when in certain games this approach feels kind of suicidal.
i’d be quite happy never to see arshavin play wide again, and instead used as the most advanced of the central 3, if we’re using a double pivot, against weaker opposition where his defensive responsibilities can be reduced as much as possible. apart from that, he should only ever be a sub. perhaps it is because we DID spend a considerable fee on him, that wenger continues with him. what we gain from his brilliant footwork in and around the box is not worth what we lose.
finally (!) my other complaint is the other winger, walcott. without the ball he continues to be absolutely dreadful in the vast majority of matches. his pace can be an effective defensive weapon, the game at home to chelsea last season he got back and got stuck in really well, but in most games it’s like defending with 10 men (9 if arshavin plays too). i don’t understand what happens in training, or in his head, for him to have made such little overall improvement in this regard
any chance of covering tottenham – man city, zm?
Already has http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/08/28/tottenham-1-5-man-city-dzeko/
Man City vs Tottenham and Man U vs Arsenal, shows how disastrous it is to field a team without a Defensive Midfielder . One has to admire Busquets no matter how much playacting he may do.
Man U didn’t play a defensive midfielder either, or did they?
To play fantasy manager, if I was Wenger, I would have tried to get the following:
Samba(12m) … a great centre-half who doesn’t cost 20m.
N’Zogbia(10m) … a winger who is a grown-up.
Enrique(7m) … a great left-back for a good price. Why Wenger didn’t get him, I will never know.
Parker(7m) … as pointed out above, a backup to Song is needed. Parker is decent, and reasonably cheap. And he plays well with Wilshere.
Adebayor(on loan) … don’t laugh, but just remember how well him and Van Persie played together.
agree with pretty much all of that. What formation would you use to accomodate van persie and adebayor together? And IMO Arse need another CB as well as Samba, as vermaelan is getting well over-hyped
I would suggest ZM’s banner formation of 5-3-1 as a starting formation, with Adebayor playing video games at home.
United have looked by far the fittest team in the Premier League to date. They have clearly been the best prepared physically to (literally) hit the ground running. They’re blowing teams away through pace and power at the moment.
Arsenal’s back four gave the worst display I’ve seen at this level.
don’t think any of it is just pace and power (although they have that), but more of just being technically and tactically very good. Every goal is pretty much through a wonderful shot or a great through ball
I didn’t mean to imply that it was just pace and power. I was was just highlighting one of the factors I see as important.
“Especially Jenkinson, who even Walcott could see was being far too agressive for the situation.” Young Theo out-thinks Wenger: Arsenal must be in trouble.
Wenger was pretty limited in the team he could put out, obviously this comes down to squad/transfer probs rather than tactics.
Tactically, the high line was obviously a disaster but I think the idea may have been to try and keep arsenal on the front foot as it was only up front that we had first choice players on the pitch.
I also thought removing Coquelin was a strange decision. He had played well, and someone in that position was obviously needed. What impact did Wenger imagine Chamberlain would have? especially if arsenal could barely get the ball!
Sometimes, things go stale with the best of managers. The game’s changed since 2000–largely owing to Wenger. But he seems stuck in a rut (same system from top to bottom, buying/selling, tactics, etc.). Teams have adapted to Arsenal, and it is his turn to respond in kind.
His success is of the past. We can still enjoy it, and should enjoy it. For now, it is time to move on.
Wauw, that’s a cool article!
It must be a hard day for the gunners supporters today, but i’m sure they will come back – one of the best talent squads in the world. Anyway they still have to buy atleast 2 players in this transfer window!
Has anyone mentioned Arshavin’s shameful performance yet? It’s been coming for a long time, as, like Reyes, he has not continued his first half season’s performances for Arsenal. I don’t know what’s happened to him, but when he first joined, he looked dynamic, electric on the half turn and over the first ten yards and hard working.
But since the start of last season, he’s faded into slothful mediocrity — beyond a few flashes of his former self. I have no idea why it’s happened, but Sunday was a culmination of a long track downward for him. And it was a disgraceful performance. He was virtually anonymous in the attacking phase, and off the ball he somehow, remarkably, managed to combine abject ineffectiveness with dangerous aggression. He did nothing to press the defenders, close down space, or track Smalling, who had a ludicrous amount of space to attack Traore.
I suspect he sees himself as an old-fashioned number ten, who plays in the centre and has few defensive responsibilities. I also suspect he has a very high opinion of himself.
But his performance on Saturday was beyond pathetic and actually disgraceful. I’d be tempted to make an example of him if I were Wenger. Someone — or preferably a few players — might have to be sacrificed to show that that kind of performance simply isn’t acceptable for a club like Arsenal. Ferguson has frozen out many players for less.
Motivation is the reason. Not every player can keep himself motivated like CR7 and Leo, after a little bit of fame and good money most humans simply stop caring enough to work hard.
Wouldn’t surprise me. But, then, if he can’t get up for it, and for up for it, I mean working hard enough to get extremely fit, and then working like he’s desperate on the pitch, then he should be dropped, because at the moment, Arsharvin is neither use nor ornament.
Beating an arsenal u-18 team isn’t much to be proud of.
The scoreline is horrible though.
The average ages for both squads were the same actually, in fact man utd’s were 23 while arsenal 23 and a half. But yeah, if Abou Diaby wasn’t injured, there would have been hell to pay at old trafford! LOL.
The age argument is really, really not a good one.
The average age of Arsenal’s starting XI was 23.6 years old. The average age of Man Utd’s starting XI was 23.0 years old. Both teams had the same amount of teenagers (1 each), both teams had the same amount of 20 year olds (2 each). Arsenal actually had more 27+ players with 3 (RVP, Rosicky, Arshavin) to Man Utd’s 1 (Evra).
Age clearly is not what separates the two teams, and to suggest so is not giving Man Utd or SAF due credit. Not only has Ferguson managed to find/develop these young talents, but he has also been able to inculcate in them Man Utd’s tactical spirit and inspired them to play with confidence as a unit, which I think this game proves is exactly the opposite of what Wenger has managed to do with these young players.
Arsenal’s downfall was and still all too predictable. Yes, the back line was in confusion, but the defending of the midfielders was terrible. The back four left almost completed unprotected. That was the tactical flaw.
I find my self struggling to understand how a man that so brilliantly fashioned several years of teams that transformed English football and played some of the most beautiful and breathtaking football I have ever seen could bring a giant down to this? It seems that both Fabregas and Nasri were more than patient. I don’t blame either for leaving.
As my first love is football, I also love and respect Manchester United, but I love Arsenal most. I celebrate Alex Ferguson’s brilliance and wish him more success if this is what he brings to football. Arsenal’s dismal collapse across the last several years has been too painful. This last match seems a harbinger of complete doom. If you love football, it’s almost too painful to watch.
Do not laugh now, Wenger?
arrogant, French born loser?
http://thebluefactoryofdreams.blogspot.com/
comment6,
The irony is that Man Utd’s defence was pretty bad itself. They conceded two but could have easily been four.
I noted during the Community Shield match that we seemed to be back to playing a 4-6-0 but what is even more interesting is that the extra tactical and physical training in the run up to the Champions League final (ie. extremely high pressure and defensive positioning when we lose the ball) has been adopted as a permanent aspect of our game. What sets this 4-6-0 apart from our previous foray into a strikerless formation is the fact that it is an actual interchangeable front four with attacking central midfielder who can intelligently screen the defence when we lose the ball instead of an interchangeable front 3 of Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez with a holding, passing and box-to-box midfielder behind them.
This makes for a much more exciting and high-intensity style of play than we have ever had. If you see how close-knit some of the passing exchanges between Cleverley, Young, Rooney, Nani and Anderson have been, it is clear that we are a lot better at keeping the ball in attack and many people have likened our recent play to being a bit copy-cat Barca. This is not the case when you see how long Barca keep the ball before executing an attacking move. We keep the ball only until it reaches the attacking third and then try to string together a series of passes that will get one attacker into a perfect position. (See Nani’s first goal against City or Nani’s goal against Arsenal). Tom Cleverley’s instinctive more is a one touch pass to a striker or winger with the aim of receiving straight after. (See Cleverley’s shot against Arsenal after a one-two with Hernandez).
The players have recently talked about how they are playing with a lot more “high pressure” and “high intensity” and it seems to be the focus of their training recently along with passing drills that Barcelona are famous for concentrating almost entirely on.
For this, I point the finger at one man – Rene Meulensteen. The Manchester United first team coach who assumes most of the non physical conditioning coaching. His personal philosophy is that the team with the most technically gifted players or the team with the most flair will ultimately win and this is shown in his former role as “technical skills development coach”. Has anybody else noticed how many more one-two’s and backheel’s we are executing? It seems like every successful attack has been started by a backheel and this accumulated into me nudging my friend during the Arsenal game and telling him that a goal would came as a result of our attack because of a backheel – and it did. Ashley Young’s first goal. This new focus on allowing the players to express themselves but also maintain the high-octane nature of our attack and style of play has so far proven to be extremely successful.
One can’t help but wonder whether Ferguson and his elite coaching staff are putting in all of this work now so that it is our new playing philosophy for when we play the best teams in the world and ultimately, Barcelona.
Wenger was never a genius. His successes derived from the ugly but necessary work of George Graham’s defensive unit. Arsenal’s ability to defend properly decayed at the same rate as Lee Dixon’s knees. Winterburn, Adams, Keowne, Seaman were the bedrock that allowed the fancy-dans to flourish. As Graham’s influence wained, rather than maintain the true arsenal spirit at the back (1-0 to the Arsenal) a new parade of fancy-dans were drafted in (Toure being the first decorative defender). The true king of Highbury in those Halcyon days was Bergkamp , deadly finisher and playmaker he was the true genius rather than Henry (and was signed by Rioch not Wenger). When you look at the list of Wenger signings you’ll find as good a hit ratio as you get from Audley Harrison, so many duds since he struck it lucky with Viera Pires and Henry (and even back then there were Grimaldi and Cygan).