Brazil 4-2 Ecuador: Brazil finally grab a win
The starting line-ups
An open game was always likely to favour Brazil, and they took advantage to confirm their progression to the knockout stage.
Mano Menezes changed his right side completely – Robinho and Maicon replaced Jadson and Dani Alves.
Reinaldo Rueda left out Segundo Castillo in the centre of midfield, with Oswaldo Minda coming in.
Brazil turned in their most impressive display in the Copa so far, though they still lacked cohesion upfront, and remain a little nervous at the back.
Ecuador tactics
Ecuador defended with two banks of four, but the key to their attacking play was fluidity. The talented Christian Noboa sat just ahead of Minda in midfield and looked to distribute the ball cleverly to the front players, but ahead of that it was difficult to give set roles to the attacking four.
Christian Benitez started as the left-winger but always wanted to move forward into his natural position as a striker, and so Felipe Caicedo sometimes moved out to that flank when the ball was lost. On the other side, Michael Arroyo and Edison Mendez played deeper, but also sometimes alternated.
Brazil shape
More interest stemmed from Brazil’s side. The major news was that Maicon replaced Alves after the Barcelona full-back played poorly in the previous game against Paraguay. It was notable how different they are as players, particularly in the way they attack. Alves is excellent at making off-the-ball runs down the right, but Maicon much prefers motoring forward on the ball, as he did most obviously for the final goal, which he assisted for Neymar to tap in.
It’s arguable that Maicon or Alves should be picked according to the type of player ahead of them. Alves always wants the player in front of him to stay in the centre of the pitch in order to leave space – he spent much of the Scotland game telling Jadson to get out of his way. Jadson learned his lesson by the time the Copa came around, and his role against Paraguay meant he could afford to play narrower anyway, because of a change in the shape of the midfield. Therefore, Alves was decent in an attacking sense.
However, if Menezes wants to play Robinho – more of a winger who will make direct forward runs – Alves won’t have that space to exploit. In that case, it might be better to have Maicon there, who can push forward with the ball at his feet.
Elsewhere, Ramires remained to the right of Lucas Leiva, and put in a good contribution with his off-the-ball running. Brazil were more compact than in the previous two games – Ganso’s positioning has improved immeasurably since the opening day disappointment against Venezuela – he comes and picks up the ball in deep if he can’t receive it between the lines, and Ramires shuttling forward meant that this section of the side was fluid, rather than the ‘broken team’ we saw in the first game.
Ecuador let Brazil play
Brazil were helped by a sloppy attitude from Ecuador. They stood off Brazil and let them play – often simply standing ten yards away and letting the opponent pick a good pass, as was the case when Andre Santos crossed for Pato’s header.
This attitude from Ecuador was combined with the necessity that they had to win the game. And, whilst they never looked likely to do that, this meant they they did try to push forward, leaving spaces in midfield for Brazil to break through. In the next round, where Brazil will face Paraguay again, they’ll face a completely different challenge – a side putting men behind the ball and trying to soak up pressure.
Conclusion
This tournament was something of a disaster for Ecuador – two games where they failed to score, followed by a defeat. A couple of decent moments brought them two goals, but there was little to suggest they’ve been harshly done by in this tournament, finishing with a single point.
Maicon was an improvement on Alves – less dodgy defensively, more threatening on the ball. The reintroduction of Robinho was less successful – he contributed little on the ball and his movement and positioning was inferior to Neymar’s in a wide position. Menezes might find another creative midfielder, playing deeper and narrower, more useful in the knockout stage. Jadson did reasonably well against Paraguay, and he might be the answer for the repeat of that contest.
Brazil 4-2 Ecuador: Brazil finally grab a win
You linked the wrong game [Scotland - Spain], but excellent article.
Oops, thanks!
I think Robinho was better than in the first game, and Maicon proved a good improvement. Like Argentina-Costa Rica, the favorite played far better than before, although perhaps the opposition wasn’t too strong.
Hulk shouldve been picked for this tournament,he would’ve been a great replacement for robinho.
completely agree, this only shows that menezes only picks players by name…
Can anyone tell me their thoughts on Felipe Caicedo? I don’t follow La Liga and was not familiar with him before last night. He seems to have had a pretty decent goal return last season for Levante – 14 goals in 29 games. What kind of player is he? Has he been linked to any other clubs this summer?
I’d suggest checking out this article by Sid Lowe regarding Felipe – http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/sid_lowe/03/24/caicedo.levante/index.html
He’s quite likely to be sold, I understand, possibly to a Russian team.
Used to play for Manchester city, big and quick but not a great player i dont think
Thanks Josef!
Quick question. Why in the world does Hulk not play? Do Brazil managers just not rate him or something? I’d have him in my team straight away, get rid of Robinho.
Quaresma was a very high rated winger when he was playing in portugal, but when he changed league everybody found out he was to slow to shine in bigger leagues, he now plays in turkey.
It’s kind of the same thing for hulk, he is spectacular, has big qualities, but he’s always doing the same moves: 1 on 1 on counter attack, dribble and massive shoot.
I think he needs to go to a bigger league so everybody can see if he’ll step up or do a quaresma.
but Hulk definitely isn’t slow!
Well you criticize the Portuguese league, but look at the players in the Brazilian league, Ganso & Neymar who are used to a slow league.
Hulk doesn’t have the massive media support, because he was almost unknown while playing here, and is playing in Portugal, not the greatest league ever – it’s like, “who is that guy named after a cartoon character?” Yeah, it’s a crappy excuse, but that’s what goes on. I’m with you, if you gonna play with 3 in the front, Hulk should’ve been on the squad. Robinho is something of a “eternal promise” to me, even though he played well last night, interchanging positions, creating spaces and struggling for the ball.
the thing about placing hulk in this line up is that he offers qualities that the other strikes lack, strength + a cannon of a left foot. and his exploits in europa league proves that he can shine in bigger waters than the portugese league.
Well, I also think Robinho is over-rated, he seldom succeeds nowadays, or does anything surprising. Hulk would not be needed, when Maicon is present. Maicon brings power and speed to the right wing.
I think that in Brazil there surely are young lads (and older), who would contribute more than Robinho in Selecao. No need to search from Europe. Take Dinho for example. 24/7 better than Robinho.
Maybe brazil should try to start the young lucas for the right wing position, he would bring his mobility complementary with ganso.
Jadson and Maicon should be tried too.
Even though brazil just scored 4 goals with robinho playing
Disagree with your point about Ganso’s positioning. It seemed to me that he was staying high up the field and lazily waiting for the ball. He did not move off the ball well enough to get into a position to receive the ball. Once he received the ball under pressure he almost always passed it backwards, and everytime he tried the ambitious final ball he lost it. On this form he is not even a 10 million euro player.
Completely agree with the Maicon, Dani Alves comparison. Maicon is a better crosser of the ball from deep, better dribbler and he is what I call a playmaking fullback. In a side lacking in creativity overall having a motoring Maicon will benefit the team more than Dani Alves.
Dani Alves as you mentioned excels without the ball, which completely suits his role at Barcelona. The other more creative players move forward with the ball and he makes those blindsided diagonal runs that can be so hurtful. Even though his assist stats may be better, most of those assists are from when he makes those runs and has a simple pass across goal to an onrushing forward. He is what I call an overlapping fullback.
Players of the Maicon ilk are players like Marcelo and Kolarov. While the Dani Alves type are ones like Ashley Cole and Fabio Coentrao. Fullback seems probably the most important position nowadays, as these players seem to receive the ball in the most amount of space and see alot of the ball, so these different types of players seem to be developing new traits that are completely different to the fullbacks of yesteryear. Eg. Superb defending was required and attacking skills in terms of crossing/off the ball running was an afterthought, eg Maldini. It’s amazing how the game we love seems to change dramatically in short periods of time, which is why we will never get bored of it!
nice analysis ZM!
but like some of the readers here, i don’t think Ganso played that well. I thought he was still positioned wrong for some of the time (still too advanced up the field and with the wingers cutting in all the time, the “front 4″ seemed cluttered together). He did bring in an assist, which was a clever through pass, but I don’t know whether his starting position was right. He was standing only 18 yards away from goal, with his back facing the goal when he waited for the ball.
On the other hand, Neymar was just simply unplayable. By far the best player on the field. Robinho would probably play better if he was playing Neymar’s position.
Neymar was very good, but I thought he was more greedy than anything else- he demanded the ball, didn’t give up often and while he had many good moments, he also gave away possession and worked himself into situations where nothing would happen (several times when he tried to cut directly into the box from the wing). His skill was certainly on full display though.
Robinho was quite useful I thought, his attacking movement was nice and he was reasonably unselfish.
1] Ganso’s position was bad, more so in the second half.
2] Actually attacking fullbacks were always part of the Brazilian NTs since the 50s and of clubs starting with the late 40s. There was Djalma Santos, then Carlos Alberto Torres, Junior, the R. Carlso Cafu and so on.
Before Maldini, in Europe there was players like Antonio Cabrini of the 80s Juventus and before that Giacinto Facchetti of the Grande Inter of 60s who defined the european attacking fullback.
The ManU of the 60s had Dunne as attacking fullback, the Celtics of 67 also had attacking fullbacks (thanks to who the became european champions) as the did 60s Spurs. The total football dutch teams of the early to mid 70s (Ajax, Holland) aren’t even worth mentioning since they already had diverse fullbacks in the Abidal vs. Alves mode (Krol, Suubrier).
The football world works in eras, you had the fullback era 1.0 witch peaked with total football dutch teams, the kick and rush 4-4-2 vs. 3 CBs stiff era and now the fullbacks 2.0 era.
I that the de-4-4-2-fication of football is primarily why the attacking fullbacks are back.
where on earth did you see a 442-fication??
I see 4231’s and 433’s everywhere but no top level teams playing 442…
united play 4411, milan play 4312 but that’s about it…
he didnt mean the situation now, but around 10-15 years ago, in which three-man-defences with 2 wing-backs dominated
He actually said “de-4-4-2-fication”
I said “de-4-4-2-fication”. By that I mean the rigid versions with basically 4 CBs.
How would you rate Clichy?
I feel like he will be able to bomb forward and utilize open space alot more at City, but isn’t he a notoriously poor crosser?
Maicon needs to stay on this team – it appears he only needs to work half of what Dani Alves works, in order to give even more service in. André Santos gave an assist, but needs to be a lot better, as Neymar gave him lots of space for him to exploit, and to improve defensively too (see Arroyo’s chance in the first half, he simply stood off).
With this set of players, the central midfielders have to get their passing right. Ramires is a great player (I think he’s one of the most important ones), but can’t be so wasteful bringing the ball from defense to attack – sometimes he seems to rush passes, and the ball ends up with the opposition GK. When he gets it right, he plays Ganso in, and when this happens…well, three assists. Ganso plays so well for Santos because two players work for him in this way – Elano and Arouca.
As for the attack, I think it work very nicely – Pato is looking to move more, opening up space for Neymar to get in, and 2 goals from each is good enough for me. Talking about Robinho, I actually liked his role: he combined so well with Maicon (hit the post at the first half), and had a good interchanging of positions with Neymar. If Neymar and Pato continue to score like this, and Ganso receives the ball on feet and in a good position, Robinho’s job will be to lurk around and attracting markers.
I agree on Robinho. I thought he played quite well.
He worked well with Maicon, who was one of the best players on the pitch. And he could just as well have ended up with 2 goals as well, if Brazil’s third goal had been awarded to him instead and the onside goal at the end had not been disallowed.
Ecuador was terrible i thought, so im still not sure if brazils problems are solved.
Maicon was an inspired decision and suits this brazil much more for the reason ZM gave. I agree with the consensus about hulk, would be a good option to have at least and would do a better job than robinho i think. I still think pato isnt suited as the striker here and only scored from poor defending from Ecuador, But there isnt really any options (Brazil’s weakest position?). And lucas doesnt provide enough creativity from deep, and i would play hernanes with ramires in the midfield.
Ramires and neymar really impressed me with there movement. Ganso is a tough subject and he has moments of magic, but he struggles with the simple stuff like keeping possession etc. And his lack of defence work is worrying, tho could be due to lack of fitness. But again no real option to replace (espicially given the Brazil public love him)
While Argentina did play a very good game against Costa Rica, I don’t think Brazil played that well against Ecuador.
Some things improved, like the constant interchange of positions of the forwards (I’m impressed you didn’t mention that), which is so important when facing teams that defend so resiliently, like Paraguay will do in the next match.
Maicon was great in the place of Dani Alves. In my opinion (shared by some TV commentators here in Brazil), he was the best player on pitch yesterday. Dani Alves needs to adapt his gameplay to suit Brazil’s shape. He plays like he’s in Barcelona… of course things won’t work so good for him.
Ramires was good, really, with his off-the-ball movement, but was kind of scrappy with the ball on his feet. I’d still love to see a more creative player beside Lucas Leiva.
Ganso didn’t play a particular good game, wasted too many passes (although he’s likely to waste some, since his role on the team is to play the killer pass to the forwards), but still got an assist (he’s leading the competition with 3, if I’m not mistaken). He looks not yet fully recovered from his last big injury, his expression on pitch says much. I still think he’s going to be great on the Seleção when he’s fully fit and get partners in midfield who can help the ball come to his feet decently (like Gustavo said). He’s still very young and the team is entirely based around him, we can’t put everything on his back. There’s a lot of room for improvement and I think he’s good enough to fly high.
if anybody could traduce this maybe we would know why menezes doesn’t want Hulk:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jckugyP7Svg
Mano basically says that he doesn’t see Hulk as a center forward, but as a second striker on the right. This may be obvious, but many people in Brazil have never seen him play and still think of him as a n.9. Another guest asks if Hulk would then compete with Neymar and Robinho, and Mano agrees.
This might be the key, because Mano sees many different options for the right wing: 1) Robinho, second striker; 2) Jadson, playmaker; 3) Lucas Moura, speedy winger; 4) Elano or Elias, more defensive options.
So tactically speaking, Hulk wasn’t called because Robinho already covers that first option for Mano.
His main argument concerns Hulk’s function; he doesn’t see him as a centre forward, since he doesn’t usually play there with Porto, and since Menezes has Robinho & Neymar . . . . As one of the commentators on the video noted, there’s a non sequitur here, since Pato doesn’t play centre fwd at Milan either. For more comment see http://brazil.worldcupblog.org/world-cup-2010/mano-speaks-on-hulk-and-other-notes.html
the main problem of brazil is that robinho and neymar come deep for the ball instead of the “playmaker” ganso and this results in brazil getting out of ideas in the final third. things would work much better if the playmaker came deep and robinho and neymar made runs forward making a 4-2-1-3.
ganso, being shockingly rated at 50M,is unbelievably bad in movement and positioning. he just stays there and waits for the ball. an english league 2 defender can easily mark him with out any problems and if menezez wants to continue this system of bringing the wingers deep to playmake, then he should drop this highly overrated player and start jadson or lucas there.
and it is amazing how robinho has declined so fast in pace in the last few years. he has become so slow and unlike players like ronaldinho and ronaldo, he doesnt have the intelligence or the movement to play without pace. he is a player that relies too much on speed, and if he keeps declining in this fashion, he will be playing in qatar in 2 years.
hahaha kid your basically saying a player with Platini’s characteristics is no good. Brazil’s wingers and fullbacks, plus a better team functioning is what could makj brazil unstopable, they are very close, because they have too many options. You hit it very orthodoxically with Ganso, that is almost excatly what you do to stop a No 10 two mid that can follow him so even if he drops deep he will be (like they did to veron in the EPL) canceled. Ok now if you have two guys on ganso who is marking Ramires when making runs????? Ok so if you stop ramiers; maicon will just start motoring through and youll just have you’re full back with no suport you wanna take that risk? So now you might use one DM to cover you’re full back (unless you have one of the most gifted wingers in history that can deal defensively with Maicon. That will leave space in the center and just 1 DM an the CB to block Ganso and the three canons up front. Brazil have slopey team functioning I am afrauid of what they could acomplish if they get it together.
i didnt understand anything that you wrote in the latter part of your post, but for the beginning, good players always find space even when they are marked by 1 or even 2 players. look at messi in the classico matches, he was marked by pepe and another player often assisted him in the marking, but messi still found a great deal of space for himself and forced real madrid into a number of fouls. if ganso cant find any space against ecuador and venezuela, how would he do against top sides?
Basically Messi is a diferent player from ganso, it’s like saying maldini is better than messi because he can defend better, with proper support and growth Ganso, being a MF, will be able to influence the game more than messi and this can be lethal. Brazil’s attack is influenced by ganso but they don’t depend on him that’s why ganso with brazil is so dangerous.
No 10’s can be so lethal that they generate space with the speed and surprise of their pases, El Pibe was so lethal no defense could hold up for long, (argentina had not lost a game since 1990 at that moment)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK86QldEERU
They can change a game and even change a WC qualifier tournament.
I was extremely happy to see Alves dropped for Maicon, I’ve always rated Maicon more than the bearer of quite possibly the worst hairstyle ever.
In terms of entertainment, this was the best match of the Copa America so far, a welcome break from the bore which had been every game preceding it.
Ecuador were a little unlucky in this tournament, they lost arguably their best player (Valencia) to injury, and would surely have been more dangerous with him in attack.
I’m still quite worried about the Brazilian defense, and it’s not as though the back up to Silva and Lucio is much to be excited about, David Luiz is still a liability.
A quick question, regarding the Maicon vs Alves: if Hulk played as the right winger for Brazil who do you think that should played behind him? Hulk tends to drift left to shoot, leaving the a ton of space for Alves to exploit. That would give Mano more combinations on that flank and he could rotate those players more frequently, if needed. Do you agree or did I miss something here?
If Hulk was playing as a right forward, I would play Alves as RB. And I believe that’s what Brazil’s right side should be.
I think the one big change compared to the previous game was that today Brazil played more through the flanks. Full-backs were more wide, and so were the wingers. Maicon was a chief. Maybe Ecuador let them use the wings more than Paraguay, who guided Brazil towards the centre. Ramirez and Lucas were sloppy defencively and poor with ball. But Neymar and Ganso played their best games so far. Neymar was always on the ball, picked it up from very deep positions, played one-twos and sooner than you would think, was again around the final third. Ganso meanwhile kept his position and was available, and deliciously served Neymar his first goal.
Why doesn’t Brazil try playing Maicon with more of a RW in front of him and Alves at LB where Neymar will move to more a central position allowing Alves lots of room to run. Dani Alves and Maicon could then take tuns from which side Brazil attacks. But Neymar (not a winger) playing out on the left should favor Dani Alves. I know Alves is a righty but Dani Alves on the left can’t be worse than Andre Santos.
I agree with everyone else calling for Hulk to make it onto this team. He could really add some strength to the Pato and Neymar combination. He also adds a great FK/corner specialist to the lineup. More importantly Hulk in combination with Neymar should completely fold in the defenses fullbacks, basically making the 4 defenders play on top of each other. Normally that would mean the defense would be too condensed for the attacking three but 1) Brazil would give both fullbacks tons of room to cross and 2) if anyone can make something out of nothing (space) it’d be Neymar, Pato and Hulk. All 3 are amazing at creating space and chances.
What do people (such as ZM) mean when they say a team is “fluid”? I’ve also seen in it football manager and don’t totally understand what it refers to. My idea of fluidity is teammates covering eachothers runs and switching positions such as the Dutch teams of old and Barca.
Not sure of the best way to inquire (and maybe it’s already been asked), but are you going to do a preview or an analysis of the Women’s World Cup final?
i dont understand zonal marking when he describes Ramires shuttling whenever he talks about him. what does this mean?
it means going up and down the flank from a CM position, its kind of like a box to box player, except Ramires goes wide right to provide width.
Check carrilero in ZM’s “Glossary” page.
Darren fletcher does it well too, shuttling down the right wing
I think Maicon is a far superior right-back to Alves. That is not to say that Alves is awful, but he defends more (at Barca) by pressing the left midfielder of the opposition and this is not the way Brazil plays. As a conventional right-back I think Alves gets caught out far too much. I would have loved to have seen the Bale/Maicon duel but with Bale/Alves instead. I don’t think that Alves would have fared even as well as Maicon (he didn’t fare well either, although granted he had an especially poor game).
I don’t know where to stand on the “Why isn’t this player in the squad?” issue. I hated Maradona for not calling up Zanetti and Cambiasso, and his team was weak in the right-back and defensive midfield positions. Meanwhile, Dunga is one of the most hated figures in Brazil for not calling up Ronaldinho/Neymar/etc. though his team was very strong and his callups had a certain playing system in mind. Menezes’ first task was to call up the players that Dunga left out, yet he’s getting criticised for leaving others out. Lippi had an awful WC2010 because he refused to take any flair players with him, and his team had no idea how to score a goal. Domenech left out all his Arabs, but his team would have been awful regardless of his selection.
Basically, I might be hypocritical here, since I am a Dunga fan, but I can understand his selection because he had a very specific system in mind. The fans wanted to see a free-flowing attack, Dunga wanted to win (but went out due to a squad implosion, his team was never really outclassed by the Netherlands). The others, it’s hard to side with, since they didn’t/don’t seem to have a particular strategy in mind.