Liverpool 3-1 Manchester United: Kuyt x 3
The starting line-ups
Dirk Kuyt scored all three goals in a comfortable victory for Liverpool.
Andy Carroll was fit enough only for the bench, so Kuyt and Luis Suarez played upfront. Daniel Agger was out, and Kenny Dalglish moved to four at the back, after last weekend’s poor performance with a back three at West Ham.
Sir Alex Ferguson surprisingly named a 4-4-2 shape. Darren Fletcher dropped to the bench, Ryan Giggs came in and Nani switched flanks. Wes Brown replaced the suspended Nemanja Vidic.
Dirk Kuyt’s goals may have been remarkably simple, but he fully deserved to be the hero because of his excellent all-round display that was the main reason Liverpool played so well.
Early exchanges
Liverpool started much better – their movement was fantastic, their passing was slick. Steven Gerrard played a reserved role in the central midfield zone, just ahead of Lucas, but the four players ahead of those two had the license to move around the pitch, rotating positions and constantly catching United’s defence out.
Kuyt was the man who instigated many of these good moves with his movement to the flanks. His discipline and ability to ‘play a position well’ have been most obvious when playing out on the right in a Liverpool shirt, but since Kenny Dalglish took charge in January, Kuyt’s lone striker performances have been very good – at home to Stoke and away at Chelsea he was also one of the key players.
Kuyt opens up space
United’s two centre-backs – particularly Chris Smalling – were too keen to track Kuyt into deep positions, which opened up space at the heart of the defence. This space was exploited by plenty of runners – most notably Suarez, who played in the hole and ran directly towards goal, but also Raul Meireles from the right, who cut in and found himself in centre-forward positions.
At one point Smalling was seen encouraging his defence to move higher up the pitch, but United’s high line actually made them more vulnerable to the combination of Kuyt’s movement and runners from midfield. Ferguson famously got the better of Roma’s revolutionary 4-6-0 (with Francesco Totti pioneering the false nine role) by using his defence very deep – that might’ve been the answer here, with Kuyt dragging the defenders all over the pitch. His movement was usually towards the flanks:
Midfield battle
United weren’t set up to cope with midfield runners. The combination of Michael Carrick and Paul Scholes has rarely been used this season – having been exposed to Chelsea’s power in the second half in midweek, here they lacked energy. Darren Fletcher was on the bench having been used on the right at Stamford Bridge – there are still questions over whether he can do two ‘big’ matches in a short space of time given the energetic nature of his game, but he might have been useful here.
Indeed, United’s shape didn’t work as a whole. With Suarez playing in a deep role, Liverpool found it too easy to manoeuvre the ball through midfield towards their forwards. When Scholes and Carrick dropped deeper, they opened up space for Lucas and Gerrard. Until this week, Ferguson has been extremely committed to using 4-5-1 in ‘big’ games – it’s surprising that he has used 4-4-2 in two of his toughest away fixtures of the season.
United flat
United had much less movement from their forward four. Nani and Ryan Giggs often stayed wide and didn’t combine with the front two, though when they came inside, they were dealt with by Gerrard and Lucas. That opened up space for Carrick and Scholes – but their natural inclination is to hit balls to the flanks, which were now deserted. It was difficult to know how United should have gone about improving their game – more movement from the strikers would have been a start, but overall Liverpool coped well with everything United had to offer.
Individual battles were less important than the contrasting quality of movement and interplay. Meireles against Evra was an interesting duel, however – the Portuguese midfielder isn’t at his best out on that flank, but twice this season he’s subdued Evra and prevented him from overlapping and stretching the play.
Changes
Liverpool dealt admirably with the injury to Fabio Aurelio, which resulted in a complete reshuffle of their back four.
United were forced to bring on Javier Hernandez because of Nani’s injury, meaning Giggs went to the right and Rooney came to the left. Both those players wanted to come inside – Glen Johnson, now at left-back, was happy with Giggs coming onto his stronger foot, but Jamie Carragher, now at right-back, showed Rooney inside for shots too often.
Second half
Hernandez threatened with his movement inside the box – his outpaced Sotirios Kyrgiakos to a cross having pulled wide in opening minutes of the second half, and popped up for a late consolation goal. United had a decent spell just after half time, but in truth they were poor for much of the game – lacking creativity and confidence.
Liverpool sat back in two banks of four and soaked up pressure. That’s something they’ve done well all season – even when they were playing badly under Hodgson, a good defensive performance earned them a deserved win over Chelsea, and another should have resulted in a win on the opening day against Arsenal. They remain well-drilled when penned into their own third, and their biggest worry was how many free-kicks they conceded in and around the box. Liverpool’s tackling in their own half was actually quite poor – see Lucas’ tackling chalkboard below – but their defensive shape was excellent.
After Kuyt’s third goal, the game was essentially over, and the subsequent substitutions had little impact.
Conclusion
Better movement and interplay from Liverpool’s front players was the key here. Kuyt v Berbatov was an interesting comparison – and not just in terms of work rate. Kuyt’s pure energy was combined with intelligent movement to provide a better focal point for Liverpool’s attacks. The goals may have simple, but the Dutchman’s all-round performance was superb.
Liverpool 3-1 Manchester United: Kuyt x 3
Told ya Fergie, United need to buy midfielder(s), btw Rafael had a really poor game today
Did he underestimate Liverpool? Usually he plays 451 against the top team yet here it seemed like he thought Carrick and Scholes would dominate the midfield on their own. Rooney also had a poor game
Apparently. After all this is the team that was beaten by “West Ham”…
If so then it was a stupid mistake. Liverpool always raise their game against United.
this is the 2nd difficult away match in a row where fergie went 4-4-2. this has been unheard of in the last few seasons with him typiclly preferring a 4-5-1. no idea why the sudden change.
Actually perhaps it was so they could accommodate Berbatov seeing as he may be unhappy that he was not playing in the big games. Only reason I can think of for it.
Mark my words, West Ham will smash them GW31 (2 Apr), I don’t know what it is but Der Hammer has brought an air of class to that team that Parker the grinder couldn’t by himself.
If he had no choice but to rest Fletcher, then he didn’t have a lot of options. If he had opted for 4-5-1 without Fletcher, it’s most likely Gibson would have played (with Berbatov demoted). And a midfield 3 of Scholes/Carrick/Gibson doesn’t offer a lot defensively; really, Sir Alex needs a fit Anderson or Fletcher (or Hargreaves) for it to work to plan. And also Valencia and Park are important to the 4-5-1 formation he favours, and both are out. I suppose the option would have been to play Giggs in the centre with Scholes & Carrick, push Rooney out left, and play Berbatov as a lone striker. Except that’s not a role he excels at… However you spin it, I think 4-4-2 was the best formation for the line-up SAF selected/had available to him.
Fletcher was ill. Baxter’s touched on the true reason he had to play that way…and an obvious point with RA as well with Berbs not being happy. But Park was the key to that hybrid position of ‘advanced defensive attacking mid’. It appears he also was using Fabio in the same capacity the past two matches. The twins have a ton of energy, but appear to be more wreckless than a Park.
1)Nicely done form liverpool, BUT :
We have watched wins in similar fashion in big games under Roy.. i want to see how will Kenny build this side to play dominant football against weak opponents..
*Gerrard played after a painkiller injection
*Is it a coincidence that before Benitez, Kuyt was a CF? Much better there, rather than in the flanks..
2)United still the favorites to win this premier league, cauz Arsenal seems unable to take advantage and keeps wasting points in ‘easy’ games..
Fair point about the ‘big games’ thing – although notable that this was a front foot, positive performance, rather than sitting back and playing more cautiously.
Kuyt was bought and played by Benitez as a centre forward during the early stages of his Liverpool career, including in the 2007 Champions League final. It was only later that he was converted to a defensive minded winger, after failing to reproduce the goal scoring form for which he was bought in the first place.
Its funny you say that because I read on the stats for Off the Post that if you start point counting the EPL from the 1st of January (which is pretty much King Kenny’s appointment), Liverpool would have been in 3rd place. That’s pretty positive stuff coming from such a negative season.
But I totally agree about the dominant football against ‘weak’ opponents. They shouldn’t have been at 1-1 at Wigan and the Liverpool that played against Man U was not there against West Ham (Although West Ham played well that day).
Liverpool’s team do need more depth though considering the amount of injured players and the lack of players that can be played after the first eleven. I can’t wait for the rest of this season and next season
Congratulations to liverpool for blowing the title race wide open, but united will still win it. There closest competition is Arsenal and they always find a way to slip up.
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Just had a quick look at the site. Quite impressed by it all and some very nice analysis on there. Will be visiting it more regularly.
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Thanks man, will do.
Excellent piece again..thank you
It’s hard to describe how huge it was Vidic being out – that was probably what pleased me most about Man U’s defeat at Chelsea. To be fair, I expected Carroll to play a bigger role, but Kuyt and Suarez did an excellent job.
Gotta say though, Man U are poor away from home. Can’t help but wonder if their away from is going to be their achilles heel in their quest for the premiership.
Liverpool played a great brand of football today, it was refreshing to see. The movement of Kuyt and Suarez was superb, not bad from Meireles as well. The way Liverpool rotated their front 4 looked reminiscent of how ManU would use Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez, and Nani a couple seasons ago. Hopefully Dalglish continues to use this system more and doesn’t try to force Andy Carroll into his starting lineup.
Couldn’t agree more. Lets hope that Dalglish doesn’t try to force in Carroll. The fluidity of the front three really (Maxi didn’t have as much of an impact) was emphatic. At Ajax i never watched much of Suarez but got the impression he was a poacher, off the shoulder type of forward (as seen at the World Cup where Forlan played off him) but his movement today to find pockets of space which caused both the defenders and midfielders problems (moving them out of position) not only created space for himself but allowed Kuyt and Meireles to run ragged.
Why change it? I think thats the best performance i’ve seen from a Liverpool team in a while, and as ZM said in the comments section earlier, it was a more positive and comprehensive win that recent times. Not sitting back and then hitting on the counter, but controlling the ball, passing forward then getting driving midfield runners. Was great to watch! The only thing Dalglish needs to sort out in the back four and who is going to play where, the front 6 doesn’t need much changing.
In saying that it is hard to keep 35 million pounds on the bench i guess.
I agree as well. It’s unfortunate we payed so much for Carroll because while it’s great to be able to have that kind of physical presence as an option in the team, it can be very limiting if you *have* to use it. We already *have* to play Carragher and *have* to play Gerrard in a central position. I just wish Kenny had a little more freedom (either publicly or in his own mind) to choose the best players for the situation.
Well played Liverpool. United were sluggish and didn’t deserve anything from the match.
Technical ability in the midfield is really lacking. Besides, United are not too great at drawing fouls like Spain and Barcelona do. (Hang on, Spain = Barcelona!
)
Really disappointed with the response though. After THAT game at Chelsea.
Hey Atkinson, this is how you referee a match. Not like a dodo.
It was very interesting to see Gerrard play a much more disciplined and reserved role today. He is generally very poor positionally there and has a tendency to neglect the space he should be covering. Personally, I think it’s about his third best position. Today though he did pretty well there. Perhaps it was because United’s centre midfielders were sat deep or that they didn’t really play anyone in the hole behind the strikers, but Gerrard played pretty well there.
You have to commend ManU for coming out to play rather than frustrate Liverpool. Even thought they would have succeeded with that approach. Liverpool played on the counter and when they did have a lot of space to exploit. That is why they struggle against lesser teams as they don’t give you space and the initiative is on Liverpool’s hands. At least the Chelsea match was open and entertaining. Here Liverpool just defended deep and played on the counter.
Liverpool sat deep and countered after establishing a two goal cushion to defend. If anything United played on the counter trying to launch long passes to Berbatov after winning the ball in defence from Liverpool’s attacks in the first 15/20 minutes.
And again, last Tuesday, United sat deep after half time when they had a lead to defend but succumbed to the pressure Chelsea exerted on them. They are doing just about enough to win back the title, but doing so with far far less quality than they had in previous years. Their winning mentality (refusal to lose, away from home) has been the difference most of the season, along with Chelsea’s post-Wilkins collapse.
Reminds me a lot of the Dortmund vs Bayern game. Same scoreline, and similar tactical story. One side played far too open and lightweight, and was continually punished by more organized, aggressive, and mobile opposition. United were astonishingly weak in defensive midfield, especially considering Liverpool’s most talented players tend to play in the hole. They need a genuine enforcer in midfield.
Disappointing game from Man U and even more disappointing tactical performance from Sir Alex.
1) I couldn’t understand why SAF started with Berbatov instead of Chicharito. Berbatov is skillful and has good ball control but lacks pace. He is able to play against teams that defend deep like Birmingham and Blackburn but not teams that press aggressively like Liverpool.
2) Scholes-Carrick combination was ridiculous. Carrick is a good passer but not excellent in defending and lacks pace. He was rubbished by the Liverpool midfield throughout most of the game. Agree with ZM. Fletcher should start. He would have been able to dictate the game with his runs and tackles. What’s shocking is Fletcher was only put on in the 83rd minute. Ridiculous.
3) I dunno if SAF did his homework on Luis Suarez. Nobody was tracking him. And I dunno if Sir Alex wanted to win the game. No real game changing substitutions despite being 3-0 down.The substitutions made in the second half (O’Shea for Rafael)showed lack of real intent, and Fletcher was put in at the most ridiculous part of the game. Obertan was on the bench but SAF would not even use him. Rooney was United’s source of creativity but was played on the left in the 2nd half restricting his role.
I’m a Man U fan and I have to say United were extremely dissapointing
o’shea was brought on because of andy carroll substitution. liverpool had extra height upfront.
But I’m thinking you’re chasing a game the best thing to do is to throw in attackers and in Man U’s case, stabilise the midfield. Non of that was done
They looked Chelseaish with the three strikers in late.
Fletcher was benched because of illness IIRC.
Agreed with all of these, particularly the Scholes-Carrick combination. Playing those two together in an away match against a young, energetic midfield such as Liverpools is suicidal.
I also couldn’t understand why he moved Giggs to an inverted-wing position on the right after Liverpool were forced to move Johnson to right back… surely playing an inverted winger against an ‘inverted’ full-back(i.e. a right footed full-back playing at left back) negates all advantages gained for the winger, i.e. cutting inside and attacking their weaker foot.
This smacks of lack-of-depth in the wide positions…
I thought it was mostly because it meant (originally) Nani got go against Carragher (which had me crapping my pants in fright), and then because Rooney’s much more comfortable on the left.
@ #1 That’s because under Roy, Liverpool tend to defend rather than press aggressively. Even under King Kenny’s first handling of the club in the FA Cup, Liverpool tend to have a more defensive mindset, almost a catenaccio gameplay. I expected Lucas as a fast defensive midfielder. But he had done a great job harassing the Man Utd defense. I was pleasantly surprised that Liverpool played much more aggressively than before.
I actually thought United started well, they were dominating possession nicely and I didn’t think Liverpool were providing too much of a threat, but similar to the Chelsea game, as soon as Liverpool got going, United just faded away, and I’m just not a fan of the Carrick/Scholes in a 4-4-2, especially when United need to chase the game.
Carrick and Scholes are quite similar in my opinion. Carrick is better defensively, but both like to sit deep and dominate the play, and this is very good when there in the lead or, playing away from home more defensively, but when they have to go after the game, and there’s real pressure on them, I really think they need a Fletcher/Anderson alongside them, because neither are strong, or hard workers, so they allow themselves to be dominated/over run.
They needed Fletcher in my opinion today instead of Giggs. Giggs came inside a lot because he doesn’t generally play as a left winger anymore because he doesn’t have the pace or agility. Scholes had nobody to hit down the flanks and they could have done with Rooney playing on the left and Fletcher in the centre midfield position, adding work rate and moving more to the right to open up the midfield more.
Man Utd look a worser side when Giggs and Scholes play in the team together because although they have great composure and a lovely pass on them, they don’t have the energy or work rate and Liverpool caused them problems down the right early on when Johnson was playing there because Giggs was struggling a bit to track him back.
I’d also add Carrick to your list, and say Utd can’t have Scholes, Giggs and Carrick all in the XI. Two of them + Fletcher or Anderson, yes, but not all 3. Carrick’s work rate and energy is as problematic as the two senior players. Without ‘legs’ in midfield, decent teams will usually find space to exploit in and behind Utd’s midfield. Also, Utd really need Park back for the ‘big’ matches (especially to receive those Giggs/Scholes passes you mention) and they need Valencia, full stop, to add width, pace, and work rate to the right flank.
I must say that I was asking myself ”Is that Liverpool?” today. Probably the best performance I’ve seen from them in a long time. ManU was overwhelmed by Kuyt’s and Suarez’s energy and willingness to press hig-up the pitch. Though Scholes and Carrick played very deep, they had very little time on the ball due to this, which resulted in quite a few good counter attacking opportunities and misplaced passes from the midfield duo.
Though Liverpool’s performance was great, Gerrard had a bad game, which was surprising. He misplaced a number of passes, he was often out of position when defending and seemed uncomfortable with the pace Liverpool played with. Is he not fully fit, or did he just have a bad day at the office?
And thanks again ZM. Top stuff!
I heard he had an injection today to help him cope with an injury. Mind you his form isn’t the best at the moment.
“Gerrard had a bad game, which was surprising.”
Ha! You should have seen him against West Ham. I love love Stevie, but, the Napoli game and a couple others aside, he’s been poor all season. It’s hard to tell how much of that is because he’s simply slowing down and how much is because both Hodgson and Dalglish have persisted with playing him in central midfield, where he clearly doesn’t belong (in my view).
Today was a great performance, but I’m still bothered by the preference for playing Meireles in attacking positions and Gerrard in defensive ones. I mean, consider their relative strengths and weaknesses:
Gerrard.
Strengths: long-range shooting, finishing, crossing, attacking movement, Hollywood passing, touch
Weaknesses: discipline, positioning, keeping possession
Meireles.
Strengths: long-range shooting, finishing, positioning, discipline, keeping possession
Weaknesses: stamina, dribbling, touch
No you can quibble with some of that, but seriously, which one of those two players would you put on the right, and which in a reserved midfield position? Except for his long passing (which in my opinion is as harmful when it fails as helpful when it succeeds), ALL of Gerrard’s qualities make him more suited to playing behind the striker (in a 4-2-3-1) or on the right (in a 4-4-2). If he were anyone else, that’s where he’d be played, but I worry Dalglish is another manager who has Gerrard wrongly pegged.
Gerrard is a typical English player. Thrives on the cut and thrust of the PL where strength, speed, stamina are all key attributes, and being an ‘all round’ type of player is good. However, take him to the International stage, and he’s no where near as effective.
So called experts and the media bang on about how Gerrard has never played for England like he does for Liverpool, the reason is quite simple, he’s not good enough for the International stage, or perhaps more relevant, he’s not technically good enough for the international game. International football is all about keeping the ball, and despite the media quoting Gerrard having such good passing, he constantly gives the ball away.
Arrigo Saachi made some comments about Gerrard once, can’t remember exactly, but it was basically saying Gerrard had no football brain, and that is spot on.
Oh, please. This position is just as ridiculous as the one I’m arguing against. Gerrard was the best player on a team that won the CL, arguably the best player on another team that made it to the CL finals, and at least one of the top 4 players and two more teams that were slightly unfortunate not to get past the semis and quarterfinals, respectively. But “he’s not good enough for the international stage.” Right. So presumably international football is miles ahead of Champions League football?
I think Gerrard has suffered from his perception in the English media. I disagree that he’s a typical English player (I actually think he’s pretty close to unique), but your point is well-taken in the sense that he has all the qualities that the English media most admire. This has led to the career-long debate about his best position, with everyone complaining about him being “shunted” off to the right (even though he had the best season of his career playing there) and even complaining about how he “didn’t win the midfield battle” in games where he was being played as a second striker (ZM wrote about this after the game at Old Trafford last year). If he weren’t seen as a central midfielder, but rather a gifted attacker, his lack of discipline and positioning wouldn’t even be noticed. No one ever complains that Messi or Ronaldo aren’t disciplined. Granted, Stevie was probably never as good as they are now, but he was in the next tier down as an attacker.
Also, when did technical ability get conflated with game intelligence? Stevie certainly doesn’t have the “head” to play a deep-lying role, but there’s absolutely nothing wrong with his technical ability. He *is* a good passer, he’s just not a particularly good decision-maker. You’re talking about him as if he’s James Milner or something, which is unfair.
I’d say that’s a pretty fair assesment.
Gerrard was failed partly by the existing structure within English football; there were simply not enough concessions given to guys who were neither strikers nor box-to-box- midfielders but something in-between
Doubtless when he was a teenager he was encouraged to be all-things-to all-men on the pitch, which encouraged his headlessness instead of developing positional awareness.
He’s a slightly glorified James Milner really, because he is better on the ball to be fair and sometimes these ‘Hollywood’ balls do come off for him. However, perhaps there lies the problem. Gerrard will play 5 hollywood balls a game, maybe 1 will come off, he’ll then get massive praise for that, and the media will bang on about how amazing Gerrard’s passing is and he’ll constantly try more Hollywood balls. What would you rather have though, Gerrard’s one hollywood ball, or Wilshire gliding round the pitch dominating the game with his clever passing, clever touches and graceful ball control?
Technically, Milner is completely useless, and he really does sum up a typical English footballer, strong, good stamina and works extremely hard, but on the ball he’s very average.
And that clueless fucking idiot Capello says Milner is the future of English football!? All I can say is thank fuck he’s not in charge beyond 2012!
@Mark Again, you’re treating him as if he’s simply a central midfielder, when that’s his third best position. He’s much more clever, a better finisher, a better long-range shooter, and has a much better final ball than Milner in the final-third. The Hollywood balls are only a problem if he’s playing a deep-lying role.
Sam’s right you are being pretty harsh on Gerrard. His talents are so much greater than just work rate and stamina. However in this day and age where international football is all about keeping possession I wonder how useful he would be considering his best days are behind him. Xavi at the world cup was played in an attacking mid position yet his main role was to keep possession, and I don’t see Gerrard having the patience to play like that.
Saachi said Gerrard was ‘a great player but not a great football player’ meaning his wanting to get involved in everything was both a great strength and a great weakness I think. If it works out for him he can do wonders but also it can stilt the team. A real enigma of a player
Meireles can’t tackle or defend well enough to play defense in England in the center of the field. That’s just reality. Dalglish gives him freedom to roam and his class shines through when we are in possession.
Gerrard has his faults but he is a solid footballer who can do everything, including a few things he does better than Meireles, e.g. defensive heading, tackling. Of course, he can also play on the right, but in the end Kenny and Steve made the right choice today to get their best 11 players on the field.
I strongly disagree about Meireles. He and Lucas were an excellent double pivot for 5 or 6 games earlier this season (about the only thing that was going right at the time). He’s absolutely capable of being the box-to-box player in a three. I’m not necessarily saying it’s his best position (he has done well further forward lately, though few of his goals have been a direct result of that positioning), but rather that I think he’s just about as good there, and Gerrard is much better further forward. Gerrard is fine in the reserved role in big games, because he really takes the role seriously, but in the smaller games, he’s either being given or simply taking a free role as the second man in a midfield three, which just does not work because it leaves Lucas having to hold down the midfield all alone (see: West Ham).
Gerrard had a bad game? The man can’t win. If he isn’t marauding forwards creating goals and chances he is lambasted for not holding his position. When he holds his position and plays a simple passing game, shielding the back 4, people think he had a bad game because well…he is not marauding forward creating goals and chances again.
He was supposed to play the latter role you described in this match and he was quite disappointing, to me at least. I think completed like 75% of his passes, whereas Lucas had completition rate of ~84%. That’s just not good enough from Gerrard in the role he was to play. And as I stated in the earlier post, his defensive positioning was very shakey. Often he wasn’t marking anyone, but he wasn’t actively blocking passing options neither.
It’ll be interesting to see where Kenny will play him, because benching such an iconic Liverpool player isn’t really an option. Also Liverpool doesn’t have too many options in the centre of the park, if Meireles is going to be used in that widish midfield role.
Gerrard’s career completion rate hovers around 75-80% – same as Lampard and Fabregas. It was his average output and more than good enough since the passes that were uncompleted were crosses or through balls, not the kind of passes that would be in danger of being picked off.
Lucas is a different player; his passes are only for possessive instincts – he regularly is in the top bracket of players in terms of passes completed.
FWIW Steve Bartram (United media guru) tweeted that Fletcher had been struggling with an illness this week, hence his exclusion.
I was surprised that United played 4-4-2 with Rio and Vidic out and with limited options in wide areas. With Anderson, Park, Fletcher, Valencia all missing it leaves United very weak in the midfield in terms of Stamina.
4-3-3 or a 4-5-1 system would have forced SAF into playing Gibson, so I don’t think it was a case of “under estimating” Liverpool. It was a good time to play United in terms of form and the state of the squad.
United don’t have the best squad in terms of quality but they make up for it with plenty of options. I think that’s the main strength of the United’s squad, so when they are without options it shows.
Wondering if it’s Man Utd’s depth that’s the failing here, and twisted Fergie’s arm into playing a 4-4-2 that he’s not that comfortable playing against the bigger sides away. Vidic, surely the best centre-back in world football right now would always be a blow, but is the Brown and Smalling combo up to this level of game?
The other area of concern is obviously centre-mid and Fletcher’s ball-winning presence must have been sorely missed. Utd can’t really replace him.
The second arm twist is surely the dynamic between Rooney & Berbatov. I.e. (forgive me for taking wild assumptions) Rooney is ahem ‘undroppable’ and Berbatov is more in form, so therefore SAF may be accommodating both?
Just a few thoughts…
Surely it’s unfair to criticize a team for having a lack of depth when their fourth and fifth center back options are mediocre. And they do have a second ball-winner in Anderson, it’s just that he’s injured too. I guess this kind of crisis happens to most teams and most seasons (look at what’s happening to Liverpool’s back line right now–I think they would have had to turn to a reserve team defender or put Poulsen/Lucas at right back if Carragher had been sent off), but I think it’s a little harsh to see it as a failing that they don’t have three really good players for every position.
I wouldn’t say Anderson’s of the same class as Fletcher. Good point about the centre-backs though Ferdinand is becoming a perma-injured worry…
“surely the best centre-back in world football right now ”
/facepalm
Look, Vidic is having a good season and he and Rio together are a great combo for ManU. Just don’t get carried away, ok?
OK perhaps a stretch too far but best centre-back in EPL at least. There is an argument he’s been better than Pique at Barca, the Dortmund duo (and I admit I don’t follow Italian football so couldn’t comment there) so there’s hardly much competition. Erm, /facepalm
How is that “getting carried away”? Who do you think the best centre back is? Pique is a great distributing centre back but looks far, far from invincible on the defensive end, especially against the break. The bulk of Barca’s defensive load is carried out by their offense, in keeping constant possession and pressure – which Pique is a part of, but not necessarily integral to. Other than that, I’m legitimately stumped. Vidic has, for my money, been by far the most valuable player in the PL this season, singlehandedly winning games for Manchester United and basically (along with Nani and Ferdinand) dragging a wholly undeserving team into the title race. Pique’s what? Like the 7th-most valuable player on Barcelona?
I don’t mind if you rate Vidic highly, and certainly wearing the captain’s armband for the first place team in the best, most competitive domestic league shows his quality. But saying he “surely is the best in the world” takes it too far. There are plenty of other top class centre backs and it’s arguable who is the best at what.
Remember, the reason he did not play in this game analyzed here is that he had a fistful of Ramires’ jersey as the Brazilian floated past him. The first yellow was also arguably a bad decision by Vidic. That is one flaw Vidic has: he loses his cool and is prone to meltdowns. In my view Vidic is a very hard working centre back who is a great tackler.
Also, centre backs work in pairs and I think there are two types: big/solid and fast/energy. Vidic is the latter and will always be best paired with a big/solid CB like Ferdinand. Two of the same type together don’t work as well.
The problem with what you’re saying is that Vidic could very well be the best centre-back in world football right now, and your argument against is far from convincing.
Yes, that part of my post may have been slightly OTT, but it hardly warrants a *ahem* facepalm, and anyway – the point raised in the initial post still stands. Losing a player of Vidic’s quality was a mighty blow…
Although Sam above makes a decent (and non-pedantic) point that the Brown/Smalling combo was 4th and 5th choice centre-back.. With Ferdinand seemingly perma-injured, a suspension (or another injury) to Vidic leaves a dodgy remaining choice: Brown, Smalling, Evans and O’Shea.
Oh yes, If there’s a better centre-back than Vidic in World Football right now (and I specifically said right now) then do let me know.
Evans and Smalling may well be the future of the centre of Man Utd’s defence, but at this moment in time do not seem to be reliable deputies, or perhaps not reliable enough for a concerted EPL challenge.
a) Vidic isn’t big and solid? In what planet are you living? He’s a “very hard-working centre back who is a great tackler” and also spectacularly good in the air. 6′1 might not be huge for a centre-back but he’s a huge physical presence.
b) Your “it’s arguable who’s best at what” etc equivocating is a much different tune from the incorrect/uncalled-for facepalm.
c) “He’s prone to meltdowns”: he has 4 red cards in 151 Premier League starts. He’s never gotten one in the Champions’ League.
d) You still haven’t suggested another candidate for “best centre-back in the world”. Just because “different people do different things well” doesn’t mean that one doesn’t exist. I brought up Pique but would rather have Vidic than him on current form, for previously explained reasons. Other than that – who? Facepalming a claim Vidic is the best and then not even suggesting one better centre back is pretty ridiculous. Basically, you were off with your first post and you haven’t shown a dramatically better understanding with your second here.
Unrelated to the above points: Evans has been absolutely terrible this season. I hope we’re not counting him as United’s third-choice CB, even if he might nominally hold that position. Would rather have Brown, Smalling, or anyone than Mr. Catastrophe.
Something I noticed and that I think made a big difference was the fluidity of the front 3 but when defending rather than attacking.
For example there were many times when suarez was pressing ahead of Kuyt and similarly if you go to the guardian chalkboards and compare the tackles made by Suarez and Meireles you can see that despite Meireles nominally playing on the right Suarez won 7 out of 9 tackles on the right hand side of the pitch compared to 1 out of 2 by Meireles. Meireles made 2 interceptions there as well but Suarez still made the greater impact in that area I think because, when out of possession, Meireles often moved deeper and more central with Suarez moving to a position on the right wing, similar to how Kuyt often operates in the same position, efectively creating a lopsided 5 man midfield when defending with Suarez more advanced than Maxi on the other side.
Talking of which, RB, what is Maxi for? Each weekend I watch the highlights shows and each weekend he seems to achieve nothing.
As for today’s game, it was delightful to see a Good Egg like Kuyt get his hat trick, a pleasure to see Suarez beat four men to set up Kuyt for one of them, and a disappointment to see that the successive, pleasing ManU sides have, at the moment, no successor. Sir Odious may want to rant and rave, but the tuth seems to be that his present squad isn’t a patch on some of his previous ones. It might be better for the EPL if Arsenal, for all their faults, were to be champions this year.
Maxi’s not a great player anymore (and truly an atrocious finisher), but he is disciplined, defends well and keeps possession. He’s surely someone we can improve upon, but he’s a decent enough squad player, IMO.
Like a less effective Dirk Kuyt? Do you think he would be good in a central midfield role like he is for Argentina? Personally I have never known what he is used for, the only good thing that I can remember him doing is that goal against Mexico
He has a much better first touch, less stamina, and much worse finishing ability, but yeah, he’s similar enough to Kuyt, and it’s difficult to play both players at once (especially when Kuyt’s on the wing). As for playing him at CM, I actually think Maxi’s best position is as a carrillero in a diamond, but he’s not strong enough in the tackle or on the ball to hold down a midfield without a couple of partners. Like I said, I hope we’ll improve upon him in the summer, but he’s useful enough.
I can’t really add much more to what Sam said about Maxi, he doesn’t do much right but equally he doesn’t cost us games (if you ignore missing chances). He seems to fill in a few gaps/do a job that lets others like Meireles make the runs forward that they do but when attacking he doesn’t seem to contribute a massive amount and I don’t think he is necessarily asked to especially as recently he has played on the left with Johnson behind him. He is a reasonably good player and I think he was free or very cheap so he is probably quite cost effective. I would like to get someone better but only if they are going to do something similar, buying an attacking left footed player for the left side would only really get in Johnson’s way when he plays there and possibly make us more predictable since we would have less central midfield runners and instead play forward through the wings a lot more. It could go the other way of course, Riera was actually very good for us at times despite being a fairly ordinary player.
Well, I think It’d be nice to at least have the option of having someone who can stretch the play and put in crosses from the left, especially with Carroll a nailed-on starter, most likely. My dream is 4-3-3 with Suarez on one side and a Sanchez/Hulk/Hazard-type on the other, but it’s looking more and more likely that it’s going to be 4-4-2 with Suarez behind Carroll and someone like Ashley Young on the left. I can live with that for sure, especially because Suarez defends more than most No. 10s, but I hope we don’t pigeon-hole ourselves as a 4-4-2 team, because that rarely works out.
This is all well and good, but clearly you can’t match the tactical sophistication of this pre-match discussion with Paul Merson:
http://www.skysports.com/video/inline/0,26691,16461_6795006,00.html
LMAO
Haha his view on Suarez was pretty hilarious, practically said he was going to be useless…
I Love Merse. I Love Love Love Love the guy…….
I watched him play for Pompey a couple of times when they won the Championship under ‘arry, and he was brilliant. He was just this big tub of lard, who didn’t move (he literally just stood still in the centre circle the whole time), but did not give the ball away once. All the Pompey play went through him and he just looked a class act…..one of the games I saw was when Pompey beat Derby 6-2. I was sat in the away end, and all bar 2 of the goals went in at my end – I walked away with a big grin…..also, that was when John Gregory (remember him?) was managing Derby, and he used to manage Pompey, so at about 5-2, you could see Gregory on the side of the pitch doing his absolute nut, with the Pompey fans screaming “Gregory! What’s the Score?! Gregory, Gregory, Whats The score?!!” – flippin’ magic…..
….to be fair to Merse on that preview, he never once thought of putting Kuyt up front. He basically said – “if Liverpool don’t play Carroll then they’ll lose….” hilarious….although, he’s probably right, if Suarez did pay up-front on his own then Liverpool probably would have been rubbish…..good Job Kenny knew that and chose to use Kuyt up there instead…..
…..like I say, I Love Love Love Love Merse…….
To be fair, I don’t think that’s too bad an analysis, and Merson is a top legend, especially on Soccer Saturday if anyone on here watches that!
He’s basically saying he thought Carroll would play, and should have played, and gave pretty good reasons for thinking that. Pre-Match, I was sure Carroll would play, with Suarez wide left and Kuyt wide right. He also gave good reasons for why Fletcher should play, and in hindsight, Fletcher definitely should have played.
Well done to Liverpool; Utd will never just roll over for them when they paly and therefore Liverpool fully deserved this win. I guess a 4-0 / 5-0 victory for Utd at home to Bolton next may put this into perspective but for now Chelsea and Liverpool have kept the rest of the season interesting and Utd having to do things the hard way as usual..
Not being a Liverpool fan can someone answer these questiosn for me?
1. Has Kuyt ever scored a home hat-trick in the league before?
2. Does Dalglish drop Kuyt now to accomadate Carroll or does he get used from the bench for the time being?
3. How did Johnson play today? Did his performance actually vindicate Dalglish’s faith in Kelly?
Clearly it will be Utds home form that wins them the title this year. I think if they get Anderson and Valencia back to full fitness and playing regularly then there should be enough in the tank for them to win the title. To hear on sites like this how much Anderson has been missed tells me a lot of how far he has come on now compared to what people were saying of him 12 months ago.
Liverpool must be rueing their away record of late too. I didnt give much credence to their push for a achampions league spot but certainly if they emulate this type of form for the rest of the season then i guess anything is possible?
1. I don’t remember Kuyt scoring a hat-trick for us, ever.
2. Dalglish will probably move Kuyt back to the wings to accommodate Carroll. If anyone is dropped I highly suspect it will be Maxi.
3. Johnson first played on the right, then on the left after Aurelio’s injury, and was solid. I’m sure our squad have a place for both Johnson and Kelly.
I’m not so optimistic about our chance for a CL spot, with Man City and Spurs above us, but I hope you’re right.
Thanks for your reply; it is a pity about the Johnson/ Nani battle which i thought beforehand would have gone a long way towards proving the decisive one on one battle to establish who would take all the points. However Nani’s and Aurelios injury ruined one of the more exiting aspects of this game. I dont however think it would have had any bearing on the result, Liverpool deserved the win and i have no intention of replaying the game again on here….
I’m certainly not a fan of Johnson, but yesterday he barely put a foot wrong to be fair to him.
Having said that, he wasn’t really tested by Nani because he had to move left to cover Aurelio. He got forward reasonably well, played a lovely ball for Maxi in the first half, and he wasn’t caught out defensively, which is of course his main problem.
Another thought occured to me. Football365 website claimed that SAF’s current use of the 4-4-2 formation away from home indicates that he believes with the players availible to him he cant play any other formation. If Fletchers place on the bench was due to the ill effects from the Chelsea game then all well and good but i wonder if Arsenal losing gave SAF the option to rest Fletcher along with the suspended Vidic in order to get two key members of the Utd spine ready for the FA cup game against Arsenal?
It may sound a little like a consprirocy but maybe SAF realised that a loss was on the cards but it would not erode further their lead over Arsenal any more thanks to the Gunners drawing at home. Better perhaps to have two key players rested (Fletcher plus Vidic although that could not have been arranged beforehand by SAF), so as to better prepare for a real battle of a cup game and maybe heap more pschycological damage on to Arsenal?
Makes sense but why risk getting stuffed in the face by Liverpool?
to be fair; no-one has seen Liverpool produce football like this for a long time, especially against a top 4 side. perhaps SAF was looking at two lots of 4-4-2’s playing against each other and rely on one to one encounters to win or draw the game.
i dont think anyone expected that sort of performance from them. Maybe Utd were hoping to get two lots of 4-4-2’s playing each other and hope that Utd could win the individual battles on the day. I think a draw on the day would have felt like a win for Utd but the silver lining for them after this defeat is they are still top of the table and have the FA and European cup to focus on (hence the reason behind my original post). Still it would be very hard for the club to take a aresult like this but we will have to see where Utd finish to see the real damage this defeat has caused…
Greetings comrades, a few thoughts:
1. I’m not sure why I am one of the very few who is unimpressed by Chris Smalling. I admit he has the physical tools to become an absolute beast of a defender, but presently his inexperience (or is it lack of football IQ?) is quite a glaring weakness. As pointed out by ZM, he kept pushing United’s defensive line higher, which invited Suarez to carve up United very nicely.
2. SAF seems to have lost his mind. First, he defends Wayne Rooney’s elbow in the Wigan match, and then he goes bonkers on Martin Atkinson for not sending David Luiz off. A bit hypocritical, no? I respect SAF for all that he has achieved, but he has begun to increasingly remind me of a very bitter old man with an incredibly acerbic tongue.
Second, he lost the tactical battle for the second consecutive week by fielding a 4-4-2 against Liverpool at Anfield. King Kenny must have been overjoyed when he saw the lineup.
I would have preferred Hernandez as striker in a 4-5-1. For me, Hernandez has the talent and ability to play up top by himself, whereas Berbatov is too lazy to deserve time on the pitch and Rooney is not just not good enough to play as a lone striker (as witnessed in England’s World Cup campaigns). With 5 in the midfield, the chances are that United would have dominated the game more and there would have been additional protection for United’s makeshift defence. The 4-4-2 is too static of a formation, and as mentioned by posts above, Rooney can really shine in a more fluid 4-5-1/4-3-3. My line-up would have been: Van de Sar; Evra, Brown, Smalling, O’Shea (more experienced and level-headed than Rafael); Scholes, Carrick, Fletcher; Rooney, Hernandez, Nani. The subs off the bench would be Giggs, Obertan (incredible pace, would have been useful against a poor defender like Glen Johnson) and Gibson (for Fletcher).
Yes United’s squad has some significant injuries, but SAF should have employed the formation that has been the most effective for the past few years and stuck with it.
3. Suarez was impressive and he has adapted to the Liverpool squad and Premier League very well. He is such a technically strong player – Suarez’s run in the box which left three defenders completely stumped would have most likely been a strong candidate for goal of the season had Kuyt let the ball roll in. Together with Kuyt, Meireless, and to a lesser extent Maxi Rodriguez, Liverpool completely tore United apart. As a football fan, I hope to see more exciting games produced by this combination in the future.
4. Andy Carroll had a decent debut and he certainly offers something very different for Liverpool – sort of like how Peter Crouch is Plan B for Tottenham and England, although it goes without saying that Carroll is much more gifted than “He’s big, he’s red, his feet stick out the bed” Crouchy. It will be difficult to keep such an expensive acquisition on the bench. The good thing is that Liverpool can bring Carroll along slowly, but I do think Carroll expects to start once he is 100% fit. This may upset Liverpool’s dynamics.
Smalling impressed a lot of people not just because of his physicality, but his composure in matches despite his youth and relative inexperience, and also of his ability to bring the ball out of defence a la Rio Ferdinand. He made mistakes, like your example showed, but I’m sure he’ll only improve.
Also Rooney is fantastic as a lone striker, with his form at the World Cup, he would’ve been horrible no matter what formation he plays in (didn’t Capello switched to a 4-4-2 at the end?).
If you are happy for Hernandez to start up front on his own but not with Smalling to start at the back? Which area of the pitch do you think experience is more important in a game like this? Up front or at the back? I would suggest that at the back is where the experience factor was missed in this game. Hernandez is a option along with Rooney and Berbatov, but there is not the same options at the back for Utd right now, except maybe swapping Rafael with O’shea….
FLETCHER HAS BEEN SICK SINCE LAST WEEK
that’s why he was only fit for bench today’s game, very unfortunate for united
Not sure if anyone noticed, but Liverpool did the same trick to score from a free kick as the first game @United this season: Meireles pushes the end of the wall, creating a space to shoot through. Gerrard’s went straight in at Old Trafford.
Yeah, I noticed. Love that move Meireles pulls.
what happened to the myth that man utd come strong in 2nd half of the season.!!! unbeaten 1st half..now 3 defeats !. didn’t happen either in 1992 when leeds pipped them, or when arsenal won with overmars goal at o.t. or during any of mourinho years, when Jose had the title won by Feb !
Interesting to see what Lucas fans think about his tackling record, since I have heard that he has improved in this regard since past 2 years.
There’s no need to think about this; he has attempted the third most number of tackles in the league at a success rate of 67%, accurate to February. He attempted the second most last season, behind Mascherano. Obviously he was bad in this game but one game does not make a statistical chart.
The stat chart doesn’t mean much. There are games where he has been garbage in terms of tackling and winning the ball back, with numerous errors that killed us, but the stat chart looked great for him. For example:
– he can be so slow and out of position that the opponents run through completely clear onto the centre backs or lazily stand there while the opponent passes/shoots…no missed tackle shows up in the stats but he failed at his job of disrupting the play
– he can be running back and get close enough to harass and dissuade the opponent from going forward, stick one leg out as the opponent cuts back…shows up in the stats as a “missed tackle” when in fact he did his job as required adequately
He has improved and makes great efforts, but he will never be more than an average defender or tackler. What he brings to the team is simple passing and calm, efficient distribution after we win the ball back. The reason we were not punished in this game for this is that United put out one of the slowest midfields in the history of the league (compounded by their only fast player crying and giving up before halftime).
MOTD2 played in a poor formation last night. When they alluded to what ManU had to say, they just showed us an empty interview suite, whereas what they should have done was rerun the Phelan interview from last week, where he opined that decisions should be left to the ref and everyone else should just get on with the game. Anyway, I’d have been happy with decisions to send Carragher and Rafael off. I’d be even happier if the FA investigated Nani’s thespian activities – I’m getting fed up with the way that silly fellow dishonours his own skill.
It was interesting that Ferguson seemed to think he might possibly win this with such a bland, flairless, rigid 4-4-2. Do you think it was purely Fletcher’s illness that changed his mind? It seems to me that his introduction still wouldn’t have livened things up much, neither is he the perfect holding midfielder that might’ve given licence to others to get forward. Are all of Man United’s players at least *somewhat* the same in terms of the role they fulfil (at least, the area of the pitch they ideally want to stand). Obviously, Anderson more of an exception. But there’s no clear destroyers/passers/creators/holders distinction. Missing Park Ji-Sung in my opinion.
Anyway, I thought Liverpool’s movement was quite phenomenal, especially for the first few attacks of the first half. Such lightning-quick rotation of positions is very hard to defend against. Who thinks Carroll basically just slowed the whole attack when he came on? He does look worryingly like a Plan B considering Liverpool’s plan A for today was quite sensationally good at times.
You have to forgive Carroll because he is still recovering and it wouldn’t be wrong to say that most of the front 6 players were probably pretty tired by the time Carroll came on. But I hope Kenny won’t be forced to play Carroll in the future if he really isn’t suited to a Plan A attack. He does provide a lot of height in a front line of not super tall players and is a good player so I can’t wait to see what he brings to the table
Very much agree on the second paragraph. I’ve read a lot of comments which reviewed Carrol’s debut really positively, but I just can’t see it. Obviously he is a plan B due to his aerial ability, but I wish his transfer fee doesn’t put too much pressure on Kenny to play him. Liverpool’s attack was much more fluid, energetic and driven before he came on.
Well, not sure if I’m correct, but this article did not mention Carra’s tackle on Nani?
Surely it was a straight red, and this coming from a Liverpool life-long fan.
That was a great result by Liverpool, no doubt. But it may changed a bit if Liverpool was left to 10-men, although they already lead by 2-0. Things could be different IMHO.
Carra apologized to Nani after the match. Should be more cautious now mate.
BTW, speedy recovery Nani.
YNWA.
P/S: Rooney did not protest much on that incident, probably still thinking about his elbow incident?
Well the first Pool fan I’ve seen not laughing at Nani. Thank you.
Your fellow scouse are giving your city and country a bad name.
Well the article didn’t mention Suarez’s incredible annihilation of the Man U defence in the first goal. And I thought that deserved an incredible mention.
That was a horrible tackle but you can’t blame Liverpool fans for not believing in Nani at first when you couldn’t see the injury close-up. He got up after the tackle, went to the ref and argued and then threw himself back down. You honestly can not blame us for thinking he wasn’t that injured. And it was a horrible tackle and it should have been a red but at least the ref was fair with the second tackle by Rafael against Lucas. At least the ref was not biased.
Not directed at KC in particular.
I didn’t think it was a red card offence when I first saw it either. And if you look up the page I’m happy with the referee’s performance.
Sometimes, when you are angry and hurt, adrenalin will give you energy enough to withstand pain for a while. If you’d seen a player trying to take you out get a yellow card, you would have done the same. And let’s hope Suarez doesn’t go all ‘vampire’ on the pitch.
Most United fans I’ve seen are congratulating Liverpool for their performance. I don’t see how laughing at Nani is warranted here. Get respect by showing some class. Simples.
But he wasn’t that hurt:
http://i.min.us/jjCqPw.jpg
And anyway most didn’t laugh at him for being hurt, but were disgusted at his weakness and histrionics. Crying and blubbering like a baby because the ref didn’t give him what he wanted, falling back theatrically as though he’d been shot, bawling his eyes out like a child whose parents won’t buy him an ice cream. It was a pathetic display.
“he wasn’t that hurt”.
Right.
How do you post the chalkboards like that? I’ve been deesperately trying to get a couple on my personal review of the match as an image but I can’t work out how to just get the image.
David Pleat copied you on the guardian website, absolutely shocking!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2011/mar/06/liverpool-manchester-united-david-pleat
Seems like United moved to a 4-2-1-3 with Giggs in the middle, Rooney left and Berbatov right in the second half, which gave them a man advantage in midfield.
Can’t wait for Andy Carroll to start a match and see what that brings. Right now, however, Suarez and Kuyt are looking great together. Liverpool should play all three players in attacking positions (with the option for one to drop back) but a healthy rotation policy is probably more likely.
Also, someone on another site mentioned that when Suarez was in the box defenders either foul him or he dribbled by them.
I think that’s exactly it. With all those quick turns and knocking the ball side to side, defenders don’t know what to do. They risk fouling if they stick a foot in but may concede a pass or shot if they hesitate to do so for too long.
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Hi Michael
I dont think it was a surprise that we played 4-4-2 on both occasions this week to be honest; Ferguson predicted rightly that Ancelotti would deploy Ramires right and drop Drogba therefore eliciting a straight battle between similar formations, the 4-4-2 of course being his preferred domestic line-up.
Likewise with Liverpool, as I stated in my preview I’d have been very surprised if we didnt adopt the same formation versus what is essentially a relatively average Liverpool side – with the three caveats to this being that a) Fergie perhaps expected a 3-5-2 with rumours of Agger returning b) Berbatov fit and ready for a game after sitting out previous 2 and c) the fact that we had to take the game to Liverpool and not play 5 across the middle in the hope of a breakaway goal (SAF sensed the importance of a win here, no doubt).
Other than that, fantastic review – and may I congratulate Liverpool (bar Carragher) on instigating the game-plan perfectly, Kuyt, Lucas and Suarez were particularly brilliant, and crucuially more motivated to win than our sorry lot …..